The Rock
3:40 When we’re talking about who is the real foundation stone for the true Church Of Christ, well, who is it really, according to the Bible?
4:53 Whom do Roman Catholic Church authorities teach is the rock upon which the Lord Jesus Christ built or founded His Church?
6:19 What does the Catholic Church use as its basis wherein proof in teaching that Apostle Peter is the rock foundation, or the foundation stone upon which the Lord Jesus Christ built His Church?
9:27 What is the error in thinking and teaching that Apostle Peter is the foundation stone of the church that Christ built based on the meaning of apostle Peter’s name?
11:48 Is Peter, the only apostle who taught that the rock foundation of the true Church Of Christ is the Lord Jesus Christ?
13:25 How do Catholic priests attempt to justify their teaching or position that Apostle Peter is the rock or stone upon which Christ Church was founded?
14:58 Does the Bible agree with the teaching that Christ is the primary rock
foundation of the Church he built and that Apostle Peter is the secondary rock foundation? Is that in the Scripture?
15:47 What about the point that the meaning of the word Peter is rock? Do we deny that?
17:54 Are there others from church history, who also did not accept that Apostle Peter was the rock foundation of the church built by Christ?
19:15 Is there anybody else in church history who stands out for saying that the rock foundation upon which the church was built was not Apostle Peter, but the Lord Jesus Christ?
24:08 When the Lord Jesus Christ said on this rock, in this verse, others would interpret this to me that he was referring to the Apostle Peter. Well, is that true?
26:57 What else can we share with our viewers that shows that Apostle Peter is really not the rock on which Christ built His Church?
29:29 Why are we not surprised that these persons today are not clearly understanding or comprehending the correct meaning of the statement of the Lord Jesus Christ there in Matthew 16:18?
32:06 Since the Catholic Church teaches the incorrect doctrine, that Apostle Peter is the rock foundation on which the true church has been built, since they do not want to accept but rather reject the Lord Jesus Christ as the one and only true foundation stone of the true Church, what finds fulfillment in them?
35:23 What do we invite everyone to do? So that all can be sure of attaining salvation and eternal life on the day when the Lord Jesus Christ returns?
[Show open]
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INC International Edition
Brother Johnny Martin: When you hear the words “the rock,” what do you think of? Do you think of Alcatraz, a rocky island in San Francisco Bay, California that was the site of the top security Federal Prison between 1934 and 1963? Or do you think about the Hollywood actor pro-wrestler whose real name is Dwayne Johnson? Or do you think about the famous fictional boxer portrayed by the actor Sylvester Stallone in a successful series of motion pictures? Well, we’re not talking about Alcatraz, Dwayne Johnson, or Sylvester Stallone in this episode. What we’re talking about is the rock foundation on which the true Church Of Christ has been built. Well, who is it? What does the Bible say about this? I’m Johnny Martin. That’s our topic today on the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition.
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INC International Edition
Brother Johnny Martin: Joining us in this week’s discussion are Brother Rommel San Pedro in San Francisco, California,
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Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: Brother Glenn David in Sydney, Australia,
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Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: and Brother Ruben Bustos in Los Angeles, California. Hi, Brothers!
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Ruben Bustos
Los Angeles, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brothers: Hello Brother Johnny!
Brother Johnny Martin: Brothers, the subject for our discussion today is the true foundation stone for the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Topic: THE ROCK
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, of course, we’re always willing to turn to the Bible and see what the Bible says and adhere to what the Bible says about this subject. However, what do others say about this, for example, Catholic priests, whom do they believe and teacH Is the foundation stone for the church established by the Lord Jesus Christ? Please check this video clip out:
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Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
[Video starts]
[Source: youtube/georgethinksalot]
Priest: Peter, the Pope. He is the rock in Christ. And upon that rock, Christ built His Church. The gates of hell will not prevail against it. God bless you.
[Video ends]
Brother Johnny Martin: Alright, Brothers, you just watch this video clip where a Catholic priest is showing what they believe regarding who the foundation stone is for the true Church Of Christ. And he mentions here it’s Apostle Peter. What are your reactions?
Brother Glenn David: I had a Bible student a few years ago who actually believed that the apostle Peter was the chief cornerstone or the rock.
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Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Glenn David: They base it, of course, on Matthew 16:18. But after a bit more Bible studies on doctrines, a few more explanations of the Holy Scriptures comparing with other passages in the air, she saw the great difference and with God’s help, she became a member of the Church Of Christ.
Brother Ruben Bustos: You know, Brother Johnny, I also encountered a couple of people who were Catholics, and they had a few questions when they found out that we didn’t believe that Apostle Peter was the foundation stone of the church built by our Lord Jesus. In fact, they were even surprised when they heard that.
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Ruben Bustos
Los Angeles, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Brother Johnny, I was there at both religious debates held in California against the Catholic Church.
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Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Rommel San Pedro: The one was in National City, California. And the other one was in Visalia, California. And in both debates, they brought up that argument that Apostle Peter, they claim is the foundation stone of the church. But I also like to point out that my last name is San Pedro. And if they use that argument that [ ] means stone. And that’s the meaning of my name as well. But I’m not the foundation stone principle upon which Jesus Christ built the church. So it’s a very, very weak argument.
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay, thank you, Brothers. Now, Brother Glenn, when we’re talking about who is the real foundation stone for the true Church Of Christ, well, who is it really, according to the Bible?
Brother Glenn David: Well, Brother Johnny, and his very well known verse, I’ll read here, Matthew 16:18. It says:
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
[Matthew 16:18 New King James Version]
Brother Glenn David: So the ones speaking here, Brother Johnny, was none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. And now what does he speak out here, of course, about the building of His Church. According to his own declaration, what would He build His Church on? Well, from what we read on this rock, I will build my Church. Now, who was the Lord Jesus Christ referring to when he said that on this rock, I will build my church? Well, of course, He was referring to himself. Therefore the rock upon which the Lord Jesus Christ built His Church is Christ. Why this is what the Bible teaches, and this is what we also believe inside the Church Of Christ.
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Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brother Ruben, what about Catholic Church authorities? You know, that is a major religion in the world, the Roman Catholic Church. Whom do Roman Catholic Church authorities teach is the rock upon which the Lord Jesus Christ built or founded His Church?
Brother Ruben Bustos: Well, Brother Johnny, for us to find the answer we need to read a Catholic book entitled The Faith Of Our Fathers, written by a Catholic priest by the name of James Gibbons. We could find the answer here on page 100. It says this:
[The Faith Of Our Fathers, James Gibbons, Page 100]
“Jesus, our Lord, founded but one Church, which He was pleased to build on Peter. Therefore, any church that does not recognize Peter as its foundation stone is not the Church Of Christ…”
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now, according to the Catholic Church, they believe that the foundation stone upon which the church was built by our Lord Jesus Christ, is none other than the apostle Peter. But what if a person or a church refuses to accept or does not recognize that Apostle Peter is the foundation stone?
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Ruben Bustos
Los Angeles, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Ruben Bustos: What is it that the Catholic Church teaches? Well, they mentioned in this book that we have read that any church that does not recognize Peter as its foundation stone is not the Church Of Christ.
Brother Johnny Martin: So it doesn’t really surprise us Brothers that in the video clip that we watched earlier, we saw that Catholic defenders say that Apostle Peter is the foundation stone upon which the Lord Jesus Christ built His church.
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Topic: THE ROCK
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brother Rommel, what does the Catholic Church use as its basis wherein proof in teaching that Apostle Peter is the rock foundation, or the foundation stone upon which the Lord Jesus Christ built His Church?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Brother Johnny, I’d like to continue reading what Brother Ruben read earlier, the book The Faith Of Our Fathers by the Catholic priests named James Gibbons, on pages 99 to 100. This is what he wrote.
[The Faith Of Our Fathers, James Gibbons, pages 99-100]
The word Peter, and the Syro-Chaldaic tongue, which our Savior spoke, means a rock. The sentence runs thus in that language: ‘Thou art a rock, and on this rock I will build my church.’ Indeed all respectable Protestant commentators have now abandoned and even ridiculed the absurdity of applying the word rock to anyone but to Peter,… as a sentence can bear no other construction, unless our Lord’s good grammar and common sense are called in question.
Brother Rommel San Pedro: We just read there the reason why they believe the apostle Peter is the rock foundation upon which our Lord Jesus Christ about the Church. Their claim is based on the argument that the name Peter, or the word Peter, is found in the Syro-Chaldaic tongue otherwise known as Aramaic, which although Jesus Christ spoke means a rock. And because the meaning of that name is a rock, they claim Apostle Peter is now the foundation upon which our Lord Jesus Christ built the church.
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Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Now, if they were to say the ability that name could refer to anyone else, but Apostle Peter, they would say, well, that’s absurd. And they would even say that they would call into question our Lord Jesus Christ His knowledge of grammar, his good sense.
Brother Johnny Martin: So dear viewers, we have seen here how the Bible has shown us that the foundation stone upon which the Lord Jesus Christ built His Church is the Lord Jesus Christ. However, we have seen from the Roman Catholic Church that they believe that Apostle Peter is the rock foundation upon which the Lord founded His Church.
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Brother Johnny Martin: Now, dear friends, this is the question. What is the mistake in believing that Apostle Peter is the rock foundation upon which the Lord Jesus Christ built His church? What is the error in thinking and teaching that Apostle Peter is the foundation stone of the church that Christ built based on the meaning of apostle Peter’s name? Well, we’ll address those questions right after the break. The Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition will return after this. Stay with us.
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INC International Edition
Brother Johnny Martin: Welcome back everyone to the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. Today we are talking about the official teaching of the Catholic Church, that the rock foundation on which the church of the Lord Jesus Christ has built His Apostle Peter.
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Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
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Topic: THE ROCK
Brother Johnny Martin: What is the mistake in believing that Apostle Peter is the rock foundation upon which the Lord Jesus built His Church? Brother Glenn, what is the error in thinking and teaching that Apostle Peter is the foundation stone of the church that Christ built based on the meaning of apostle Peter’s name?
Brother Glenn David: Well, we could read the answer here in the book of Acts, chapter 4:8,10 to 11. This is what the Bible says, I quote:
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’
[Acts 4:8,10-11 New King James Version]
Brother Glenn David: So firstly, what we’d like to strongly emphasize here is that the one speaking was none other than the apostle Peter. Now he was the one that Lord Jesus Christ was speaking directly to when he said in Matthew 16:18, ‘On this rock, I will build My Church.’
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Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Glenn David: So if there’s anyone who understood what the Lord Jesus Christ meant here, it would be the apostle Peter. If there is anyone who knows whether or not the apostle Peter is the rock foundation of the true Church, while the apostle Peter would know. Also, the apostle Peter clearly declared the truth that the Lord Jesus Christ is the stone or rock foundation of the true Church. Therefore the claim of Catholic priests that the apostle Peter is the stone or rock on which the church was built–it’s not biblical or scriptural at all. It goes against what the Apostle Peter himself taught that it was our Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the stone or rock foundation of the true church. So once again, Catholic authorities are mistaken in teaching that the apostle Peter is the rock foundation of the true Church Of Christ. And Apostle Peter, on the other hand, is obviously correct in teaching that the rock foundation is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. And this is what we believe as well as members of the Church Of Christ or the Iglesia Ni Cristo.
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brother Ruben, Brother Glenn showed us a very, very interesting passage of the Holy Scripture, where we can really see that Peter the apostle is showing us that the Lord Jesus Christ is the rock foundation of the church he built. Now, Brother Ruben, this is the question, is Peter, the only apostle who taught that the rock foundation of the true Church Of Christ is the Lord Jesus Christ?
Brother Ruben Bustos: Well, no Brother, it is not only Apostle Peter. In fact, the apostle Paul also introduces that our Lord Jesus Christ is the foundation stone of the true Church, this is what we could read here in the book of Ephesians, chapter 2, verses 20 through 22:
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
[Ephesians 2:20-22 New King James Version]
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now, according to the apostle Paul, he mentions to us here that the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
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Ruben Bustos
Los Angeles, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now we should notice that Apostle Paul never mentioned or wrote that Apostle Peter is the rock foundation of the Church Of Christ. The truth of the matter is, beloved friends, we inside the Church Of Christ or the Iglesia Ni Cristo believe the teachings of the apostles, that is recorded in the Holy Scriptures that our Lord Jesus Christ, is the rock foundation upon which the true Church is built.
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Topic: THE ROCK
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, Brother Ruben, if I could stay with you please, how do Catholic priests attempt to justify their teaching or position that Apostle Peter is the rock or stone upon which Christ’s church was founded?
Brother Ruben Bustos: Well, Brother Johnny, to get the answer we need to read from a book entitled The Question Box, written by a Catholic priest by the name of Bertrand L. Conway, with a nihil obstat of Arthur Scanlon and imprimatur of Patrick Hayes, a Catholic priest, we can read from pages 148 through 149. This is what we could read:
[The Question Box, Bertrand L. Conway, nihil obstat by Arthur Scanlan, imprimatur by Patrick Hayes, Pages 148-149]
“The early Fathers frequently speak of Peter as the rock. Tertullian writes: ‘Peter, who is called the rock whereon the Church was to be built… St. Cyprian writes: ‘Peter, whom the Lord chose as first, and upon whom he built His Church’… Christ was the Divine Founder of the Church, its Rock primarily; Peter was the rock secondarily, by divine appointment.”
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now the Catholic authorities attempt to justify their teaching or position that Apostle Peter is the rock or stone upon which our Lord Jesus Christ Church was founded by saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the primary rock foundation, while Apostle Peter is the secondary rock foundation by divine appointment. Now if we look at what they say, we can safely conclude that they believe that there are two, two foundation stones upon which the true Church is built.
Brother Johnny Martin: Well Brother Rommel, does the Bible agree with the teaching that Christ is the primary rock foundation of the Church he built and that Apostle Peter is the secondary rock foundation? Is that in the Scripture?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: No, Brother Johnny, and that can be proven in First Corinthians chapter 3, verse 11:
For God has already placed Jesus Christ as the one and only foundation, and no other foundation can be laid.
[I Corinthians 3:11 Today’s English Version]
Brother Rommel San Pedro: So the Bible does not agree with the claim or the teaching of the Catholic Church, that there are two foundations, our primary Foundation, which is our Lord Jesus Christ, and the secondary foundation, which is Apostle Peter.
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Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Rommel San Pedro: The Bible says there’s only one foundation, and that is our Lord Jesus Christ. No other foundation can be laid.
Brother Johnny Martin: Now Brother Glenn, what about the point that the meaning of the word Peter is rock? Do we deny that?
Brother Glenn David: Well, first of all, let’s read John 1:42, which says:
Then he took Simon to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “Your name is Simon son of John, but you will be called Cephas.” (This is the same as Peter and means “a rock.”
[John 1:42 Today’s English Version]
Brother Glenn David: So Brother Johnny, we don’t deny that the meaning of the word Peter is rock. In fact right here in this first we can see that it says you’ll be called Cephas, which is the same as Peter and means a rock. But this does not mean to say that simply because the word Peter means a rock that Peter now is the rock foundation, upon which the Church Of Christ built is founded, Even though one is called Rock or his name means a rock well, that does not mean or does not make one the rock upon which Christ found His Church.
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brothers and dear friends, the Bible clearly shown us that the Lord Jesus Christ, not apostle Peter, is the rock foundation for the true Church Of Christ.
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Brother Johnny Martin: Now are we the only ones who have proclaimed that the rock foundation upon which the true Church Of Christ was built is the Lord Jesus Christ? That’s what we’re going to talk about next as the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition continues, stay with us.
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INC International Edition
Brother Johnny Martin: Welcome back, everyone to the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition.
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Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
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Topic: THE ROCK
Brother Johnny Martin: We have been talking about the teaching of the Catholic Church, that Apostle Peter is the rock on which the Lord Jesus Christ founded His Church. Now we have read several passages of the Bible that have shown us that this teaching of the Catholic Church is in error, because the true one and only rock foundation for the true Church Of Christ is the Lord Jesus Christ. But you know, Brothers, some might be wondering, are we the only ones who say that? Are there others who have proclaimed that the Lord Jesus Christ, and not Apostle Peter, is the rock foundation for the true Church? Brother Rommel, are there others from church history, who also did not accept that Apostle Peter was the rock foundation of the church built by Christ?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Yes, Brother Johnny. I can read that here in the book entitled The Church As A Body Of Christ, Vol. 1, K.E. Skydsgaard, et Al., nihil obstat by Charles Corcoran, imprimatur by Leo Pursley. We can read this on page 25:
[The Church As A Body Of Christ, Vol. 1, K.E. Skydsgaard, et Al., nihil obstat by Charles Corcoran, imprimatur by Leo Pursley, Page 25]
Bishop Ambrose of Milan does not speak of Peter as the foundation of the Church. He strongly underscores the significance of Peter’s faith, and it is a man of faith that he has a greater authority for teaching than the other apostles. It is in this respect, and not, as one who governs and is given jurisdiction that Rome has inherited Peter’s charge.
Brother Rommel San Pedro: And this Catholic book, this official Catholic book, states there by the scholar, that bishop Ambrose of Milan, that’s a bishop of the Catholic Church, that was in Italy. He does not speak of Peter, Apostle Peter as the foundation of the church. And when you say a bishop that’s higher than any priest so that’s an authority within the Catholic Church that also teaches that Apostle Peter was not the foundation stone.
Brother Johnny Martin: That’s very interesting Brother Rommel. Brother Glenn, is there anybody else in church history who stands out for saying that the rock foundation upon which the church was built was not Apostle Peter, but the Lord Jesus Christ?
Brother Glenn David: Well, from the same book entitled The Church As The Body Of Christ, Volume 1, K.E. Skydsgaard, et Al, nihil obstat by Charles Corcoran, imprimatur by Leo Pursley, on pages 25 to 26 this time it says:
[The Church As The Body Of Christ, Volume 1, K.E. Skydsgaard, et Al, nihil obstat by Charles Corcoran, imprimatur by Leo Pursley, Pages 25-26]
It is naturally important to observe what Augustine found in the passage. He knew that its interpretation was difficult and had two understandings of it himself. For some it was Peter who was the rock, for others, Christ; and it was this last conception toward which Augustine leaned. ‘For it does not say: You are the rock, but you are Peter. The rock was Christ whom Peter confessed– as the entire church also confessed to him – and by whom he was called Peter.’ It was Peter who received his name from the rock and not the rock which receives its name from Peter. When Jesus said that, ‘upon this rock I will build my church,’ it means upon that rock on which Peter has just confessed his faith.’ Peter himself is built upon that rock. But at the same time Peter is the living symbol, the archetype of the entire church.
Brother Glenn David: So Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, was not the only one in church history who didn’t believe that the apostle Peter was the rock foundation upon which Christ founded His Church. That was also the understanding of Augustine, and others also understood that the rock foundation upon which Christ built His Church was not the apostle Peter, because it says here, it was naturally important to observe what Augustine found in the passage based on Matthew 16:18. He knew that its interpretation was difficult and had two understandings of it for himself. For some, it was Peter who was the rock for others Christ.
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Topic: THE ROCK
Brother Glenn David: And it was this last conception that the rock which the Church was founded was Christ towards which Augustine leaned. So what was the explanation that Augustine gave for his leaning toward the understanding that Jesus is the rock upon which he built His Church? Well, it says to the for it does not say you either rock but you are Peter. And the rock was Christ when Peter confessed, as the entire Church also confesses him, and by whom he was called Peter. And according to what we read, how should that statement of Christ be understood? When he said before him ‘on this rock I will build my church.’ It says, when Jesus said that, upon this rock, I will build my church, it means, upon that rock on which Peter has just confessed his faith.
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Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Glenn David: Peter himself is built upon that rock. So we have two figures from church history who testify that Peter was not the rock on which Jesus Christ built His Church. That rock was none other than our Lord Jesus Christ. So we agree with that testimony of theirs because it agrees with the teachings of the Holy Bible, which we looked at earlier.
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay, dear friends, we can see from the Bible, that the Lord Jesus Christ is the rock foundation or the foundation stone for the church he built. Nevertheless, Catholic Church authorities insist that Apostle Peter is the rock foundation.
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Brother Johnny Martin: And their insistence is based upon so-called good grammar in Matthew 16:18. Can the so-called good grammar of what is written in Matthew 16:18 be used as the basis for improving the apostle Peter, not Jesus Christ, is the rock foundation? That’s what we’re going to talk about next as the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition continues, stay with us.
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INC International Edition
Brother Johnny Martin: Welcome back, everyone to the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. Today, we’ve been discussing the real rock foundation on which the Lord Jesus Christ founded His Church. And we saw from the Holy Bible, that that rock is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, not the apostle Peter. We have also seen even other religious authorities have testified that the rock foundation of the church that Christ built is not Peter, but the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
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Topic: THE ROCK
Brother Johnny Martin: However, Catholic Church authorities insist that Peter is the rock Foundation, or the foundation stone for the true Church. And they base their insistence on the so-called good grammar in Matthew 16:18. Now as a reminder, let’s read that verse again. Matthew 16:18, where this is stated:
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church,…
[Matthew 16:18 NKJV]
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brother Glenn, when the Lord Jesus Christ said on this rock, in this verse, others would interpret this to me that he was referring to Apostle Peter. Well, is that true?
Brother Glenn David: Of course not Brother Johnny because they have misunderstood or misinterpreted this statement by or made by the Lord Jesus Christ, because our Lord Jesus Christ did not say here you are, Peter, and on you I will build My Church.
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Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Glenn David: He also did not say here you are, Peter, and you are the rock on which I will build My Church. But what does he say? He says, You are Peter, and on this rock, I will build My Church. So the one he refers to by the words, this rock is himself. And why are we so certain of this? What if we read the preceding verses here in Matthew 16:13-17 this is what we could read here:
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My father, who is in heaven.
[Matthew 16:13-17 New King James Version]
Brother Glenn David: So before making the declaration on this rock, ‘I will build My Church,’ our Lord Jesus Christ was in fact conversing with His disciples, which included the apostle Peter, in this conversation, our Lord Jesus Christ was asking his disciples, a few questions that pertain to himself. He asked them, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” After hearing them give their responses, he then asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” At this, the apostle Peter answered, ‘well, you are Christ, the Son of the living God.’ And because of this, our Lord Jesus Christ answered, responded to the apostle Peter, ‘flesh and blood has not revealed this about Jesus being the Christ and the Son of the living God to you, but my father, who is in heaven,’ so what we should understand here is that the entire subject or topic of this conversation was not the apostle Peter, but rather, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Now who He was, is what they were talking about there. They were not talking about Apostle Peter, about who or what he was. So after understanding the subject here in this conversation, is the Lord Jesus Christ when He declared that on this rock, I will build My Church. So the rock here is the subject of their conversation, the Lord Jesus Christ and not the apostle Peter.
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay, Brother Glenn, now, Brother Rommel, what else can we share with our viewers that shows that Apostle Peter is really not the rock on which Christ built His Church?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Brother, Johnny, I’d like to read Matthew 16:18, this time from the New Revised Standard Version, which I have right here on page on verse 18. So that states here:
And I tell you, you are Peter, {Gk [Petros]} and on this rock {Gk [petra]} I will build my church,
[Matthew 16:18 Revised Standard Version]
Brother Rommel San Pedro: So notice in the Revised Standard Version, you could see in the footnote, that the original term because the original Bible in the New Testament was written in Greek. The original for the name Peter is Petrus. But the phrase this rock, referring to this rock up in which Jesus Christ built His Church is Petra, Christ built his Church on Petra, and not on Petros. What’s the difference? In the reference book called New Scofield Reference Bible, this explains the difference in difference on page 1021:
[New Scofield Reference Bible, Page 1021]
“1 (1618) In the Greek there is a play upon words in the statement: ‘Thou art Peter [petros, a stone] and upon this rock [petra, a massive rock] I will build my church.’ It is upon Christ himself that the church is built.”
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Now according to this reference book, the Greek Petros means a stone while the rock upon which our Lord Jesus Christ would build His Church. Petra means a massive rock. Our Lord Jesus Christ did not build His Church upon Petros, but upon Petra, that massive rock and so we agree with this, the scholars here stated that Christ built the church upon himself as that massive rock as that Petra. If others would make the argument that others are called stones, let’s remember that even though Peter possibly was called a stone. Christians are also called stones in first Peter 2:4-5 and 9 doesn’t mean our Lord Jesus Christ built the church upon them.
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Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: So dear viewers, Catholic Church authorities and defenders are guilty of misunderstanding the statement or teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ there in Matthew 16:18. Now, Brother Ruben, why are we not surprised that these persons today are not clearly understanding or comprehending the correct meaning of the statement of the Lord Jesus Christ there in Matthew 16:18?
Brother Ruben Bustos: Well, because Brother Johnny, this is not the first or only time that a statement made by our Lord Jesus Christ was not understood properly by the people hearing or listening to him. Now to show this we need to read from the Bible here in the Gospel according to Apostle John and chapter 2, verses 19 through 21. This is what we could read.
Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking of the temple of His body.
[John 2:19-21 New King James Version]
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now, according to what we have read, in these verses, our Lord Jesus Christ said, Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will raise it up. Now, did he speak these words in a vacuum or alone with no one to hear him? Well, obviously not. For, there were people who heard what our Lord Jesus Christ said. But the question is this, did they understand what our Lord Jesus Christ meant? What did they think when he said these words, ‘this temple?’ Well, it said in the verse that the Jews said, it has taken 46 years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days? So these Jews whom our Lord Jesus Christ was speaking to, although they clearly heard what our Lord Jesus Christ said, while they could not or rather, they clearly did not understand what our Lord Jesus Christ meant, for they thought that the temple he was referring to was the edifice or the building that took many years to build, and which they could see standing before them.
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Topic: THE ROCK
Brother Ruben Bustos: But that was not the temple that our Lord Jesus Christ was talking about. Our Lord Jesus Christ, when He said ‘this temple,’ he was talking about over referring to his own body, because it said in the verse, He was speaking of the temple, which is His body. Now in the same way Brothers, the Catholic priests, along with their defenders, who insist that the words this rock referred to Apostle Peter, are making the same mistake of not properly understanding what our Lord Jesus Christ said. The words ‘this rock’ does not refer to Apostle Peter, but it refers to none other than our Lord Jesus Christ.
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brother Rommel, since the Catholic Church teaches the incorrect doctrine, that Apostle Peter is the rock foundation on which the true church has been built, since they do not want to accept but rather reject the Lord Jesus Christ as the one and only true foundation stone of the true Church, what finds fulfillment in them?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Brother Johnny, I like to read here in Acts 4:10 to 12, here’s what the Bible states:
let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone. Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
[Acts 4:10-12 New King James Version]
Brother Rommel San Pedro: What’s interesting is that the Catholic priests, in rejecting all of Jesus Christ as the one and only sole Foundation stone, and placing instead Apostle Peter as a stone, find fulfillment in what the verse says there. They’re rejecting the one and only Foundation who is our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Brother Glenn David: And if I could just interject there, Brother Rommel, just because the apostle Peter should not be recognized as the rock or stone foundation of the true Church Of Christ, it does not mean to say that we disregard Him, we disrespect him, or we degrade him in any way. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. Because inside the true Church Of Christ, the apostle Peter is highly regarded, respected as one of the first… one of the original apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, the very first few members of the Church Of Christ, founded by Christ, a messenger of God in the name of Jesus Christ, and one of the first pillars of the first century Church Of Christ. And one of the writers of a couple of books in the Holy Bible also bears his name. But nowhere in the Bible does it say that we should recognize him as the foundation stone on which the Church was founded by Christ because that place or position has already been occupied by our Lord Jesus Christ, and no one else can fulfill that, especially the apostle Peter.
Brother Ruben Bustos: And another thing, Brothers, what we have to also understand is that since the Catholic Church has rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as the one and only true rock foundation of the Church Of Christ, this shows that there was no salvation within the Catholic Church. Why do we say that? Well that mentioned in the verse of verses read earlier by Brother Rommel, it said, there the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Nowhere is their salvation and any other for there was no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
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Ruben Bustos
Los Angeles, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Rommel San Pedro: I’d like to add, Brother Ruben, that there is no salvation for people who were in a church that is not called by the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. But instead it’s called by a name or a title that’s invented by men, which cannot be found in the Bible and excludes the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. That’s why there’s only one church built by Lord Jesus Christ. And that’s a true Church Of Christ. And only in that Church, our Lord Jesus Christ built, can mankind find salvation.
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Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: So Brother Glenn, what do we invite everyone to do? So that all can be sure of attaining salvation and eternal life on the day when the Lord Jesus Christ returns?
Brother Glenn David: Well, we could read the answer in First Timothy chapter two, three to four, it says this:
This is good, and it pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to know the truth.
[I Timothy 2:3-4 Today’s English Version]
Brother Glenn David: So going back to your question, Brother Johnny, what do we invite everyone to do so that all people can be saved on the Day of Judgment? Well, we invite everyone to follow what the Bible says, and do what God wants, what He desires. And what is it that God wants or desires? He wants everyone to be saved. But in order to be saved, God wants everyone to come to know the truth. And please take note of that, dear viewers, the Lord God wants everyone, not just a few people, few nations, but everyone to know the truth written in the Holy Bible.
Brother Johnny Martin: So dear friends, we encourage everyone to study and learn more about the biblical teachings upheld by the Church Of Christ or Iglesia Ni Cristo.
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To learn more about the Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church Of Christ), log onto iglesianicristo.net and incmedia.org
Brother Johnny Martin: Please listen to our programs that are broadcast over the radio and television and can also be viewed online. And you’re always welcome to come and attend our worship services, evangelical missions and Bible studies in your area. We’d like to thank Brother Rommel San Pedro in San Francisco, California, Brother Glenn David in Sydney, Australia, and Brother Ruben Bustos in Los Angeles, California, for giving us Bible-based answers so that as the Apostle Peter said to the members of the Church, you will be ready to speak up until anyone who asks while you’re living the way you are, which we can read in first Peter 3:15.
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, that does it for us here on the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. We hope you’ll join us again next time. I’m Johnny Martin, and thank you so much for watching. And as we come to the end of the program, we invite you to join us for a short prayer.
Brother Ruben Bustos: Our most gracious and loving Father in heaven we offer to you our profound thanks for allowing us to once again share your words of truth to our fellow man. Thank you so much for utilizing this program once again. So that Father we could make known to our fellow men, the teachings that they need to accept and have faith in so that they would receive salvation, when you send forth your only begotten Son. Please have mercy upon our viewers today. Please give them the opportunity that they need to come to the knowledge of the truth, so that they may recognize the true foundation stone of the Church built by your only begotten Son so that Father, we may worship and magnify your name. Lord Jesus, our Savior, we approach you this day we beg you to please be merciful upon those who have listened to this message today. Please give them the opportunity to recognize you, Lord Jesus, as don’t run in through the foundation stone of your Church, so that they would receive the many benefits that you will give to those that belong to you. But above all, the salvation of our souls. Father, we returned to you in prayer. It is our divine hope that our supplications have reached you. And you will maintain our connection with the spirit that reigns within the Church Administration. For all of these things we ask and beg for through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
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