Catholic Vs INC: What Happens After Death?

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INC International Edition

[00:00] Is It Right to Communicate with the Dead?

Brother Bob Pellien: There are many practices in many cultures as well as religious organizations that center around communicating with loved ones that have passed away. To some, it seems natural, even desirable, to speak or do something for loved ones that have passed away. It’s very difficult to be without someone you have spent your whole life with, which leads many to be unwilling to stop communicating and stop interacting with loved ones that have passed away. So today we’re asking our panelists to discuss this topic and especially the significant difference in the beliefs about the dead between the Iglesia Ni Cristo and the Roman Catholic Church. 

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IS IT RIGHT TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE DEAD?

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Brother Bob Pellien

San Francisco, California

Minister of the Gospel

Brother Bob Pellien: I’m Bob Pellien. That’ll be our topic of discussion with our panelists for today on this is the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition, and joining us today in our discussion is Brother Eric Waterman in Quezon City, Philippines; Brother Mike Guerrero in Sacramento, California;  as well as Brother Lawrence Piatti in the Republic of Ireland. 

Brother Bob Pellien: Brothers, thank you for being with us. Brothers, as we mentioned today, our discussion is about the various beliefs and the practices as well concerning the dead, including prayers and rituals that are popularized in the Roman Catholic Church for those who have passed away. Then let’s turn to the Bible for the final say on the matter, which is, of course, what is being upheld here inside the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

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Brother Michael Guerrero

Sacramento, California

Minister of the Gospel

Brother Mike Guerrero: It’s important to do that, Brother Bob, because there are so many held emotionally captive by false teachings about the dead.

[01:30] Roman Catholic Teaching on Purgatory

Brother Bob Pellien: What do you mean by that, Brother Mike? That may seem a bit harsh of a way to put it for some. What example could you show?

Brother Mike Guerrero: Well, in the Roman Catholic Church, the members are taught that there’s a place called purgatory, and that prayers, masses, and sacrifices offered by the living can help those who have died already. 

Brother Bob Pellien: How so? Does the Catholic Church actually teach that to their members?

Brother Mike Guerrero: Absolutely, Brother Bob. We see them having masses said for their dead loved ones, prayers, and various rituals for the dead. 

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Brother Eric  Waterman

Quezon City, Philippines

Minister of the Gospel

Brother Eric Waterman: So, Brother Bob and Brother Mike, if I might be able to jump in here. I have an actual official book of the Catholic Church entitled “Faith of Our Fathers, written by a cardinal of the Catholic Church in James Gibbons on page 260. This is what is recorded in that book: 

[Faith of Our Fathers by James Gibbons, page 260]

The doctrine of an intermediate state is thus succinctly asserted by the Council of Trent: “There is a Purgatory and souls there detained, are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar.” 

[04:30] What the Bible Says About the Dead

Brother Eric Waterman: So here we can see how they introduced a doctrine which was different from the Bible. The doctrine which they entitle “purgatory,” which is a place where the loved ones that have dearly departed are detained, and prayers of sacrifice by living people can help them get out of that situation. People are convinced to do these things because of their emotional attachment to their loved ones that have recently or already passed away. And it’s important here to take note: what does the Bible actually say about the dead? Can the living do anything at all to benefit a dead person? Can they talk to the dead? Can they say seance to the dead? Even communicate with them in any way? Well, let’s go back to what’s the truth in the Bible. Here is what we can read in Ecclesiastes chapter 9 and the verses 5 and 6: 

For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing. And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Never more will they have a share in anything done under the sun. 

[Ecclesiastes 9:5 and 6 New King James Version] 

Brother Eric Waterman: So the Bible is very clear that those who have died in the past will never benefit from anything that is done by those that are still alive, those that are in this life. So no matter what masses a Catholic would have said for a loved one that passed away, or no matter how many prayers the priest has said on behalf of their dearly departed or loved one, all those who have died in the past cannot benefit from anything that is done under the sun. Therefore, the living cannot help the dead or communicate with them in any way. 

Brother Bob Pellien:So that then, Brother Eric, is the reason why we here in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, we don’t have any rituals or ceremonies for the dead, and we do not talk to them on social media. So what we can see here then is that the Bible teaches the truth  , and the Catholic Church clearly teaches something very different. 

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IS IT RIGHT TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE DEAD?

Brother Bob Pellien: But here’s the thing, Brothers. What about those who believe that the dead can really communicate with them, and they too can communicate with the dead? Like, for example, I think you mentioned even in the seances and and the like. What about all that? 

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Brother  Laurence Piatti

Belfast, Ireland

Minister of the Gospel

Brother Laurence Piatti: Brother Bob and dear friends, many people are convinced that they can communicate with their dead loved ones through seances or different kinds of spiritualists that present various ways of communicating with the dead loved ones.

[08:30] Can the Living Communicate with the Dead?

Brother Bob Pellien: What then is the real truth about all that, Brother Lawrence? Can the living really communicate with the dead through prayers, like what’s being practiced in the Roman Catholic Church, and additionally regarding beliefs about the dead other than the beliefs of the Catholic Church, can the dead communicate with the living, like showing up in a séance and communicating with us, and in any other time, for that matter? Does the Bible teach that those who have died does it teach that they can hear, that they can respond to, or take part in anything that the living do? 

Brother Laurence Piatti: The answer to all of those questions is no, and here is the reason why. Allow us to read here in Psalms 146 and the verse is 4. 

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day, his thoughts perished. 

[Psalms 146:4 King James Version]

Brother Laurence Piatti: So the Bible is very clear: when a person dies, even his thoughts perish or cease.

[10:30] Ghosts and Popular Beliefs

Brother Bob Pellien: Thank you, Brother Laurence. Yes, okay. Their thoughts cease, but is there anything more specific about their ability to return to the house? You know, rattle chains and such, as the movies sometimes depict the dead. You know, returning as ghosts and such, than to haunt the living.

Brother Mike Guerrero: Well, Brother Bob, Hollywood and the movies have shown how ghosts return to their homes, which contributed to the widespread belief that it is so. But the Bible teaches differently. Let’s read the book of Job. We’ll read chapter 14, and the verses that we are going to read are verses 10 and also verse 12: 

But man dies and is laid away; Indeed he breathes his last And where is he? So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. 

[Job 14:10,12 New King James Version]

Brother Mike Guerrero: Brother Bob, dear friends, the dead will not rise, thus not return to anyone’s home or visit anyone who is alive as a ghost or in any other form. Therefore, the dead cannot communicate with the living because it is clearly written in the Bible that the thoughts of those who are dead in the grave have perished. Nor will they awake or be roused from their sleep until the heavens are no more.

[13:30] When Will the Dead Rise?

Brother Bob Pellien: Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait a second, there, Brother Mike. We heard what you read. It said there that they will not return or arise, but it also said until the heavens be no more. So, what about that? 

Brother Eric Waterman: Well, Brother Bob and Brother Mike, let me jump in here and let us ask when will that time be? When the heavens are no more. And for that we can turn to what the apostle Peter wrote in his letter here in Second Peter chapter 3, the verses 7 and 10. Allow me to read: 

But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 

[II Peter 3:7 and 10 New King James Version]

Brother Eric Waterman: So the Bible is clear in teaching us that the dead remain in their graves will not rise again until the heavens disappear. 

Brother Bob Pellien: So surely, Brother Eric, everyone would want to ask what. When will that be? 

Brother Eric Waterman: Well, it mentions Brother Bob in the same verse, it teaches us that that will be on the Day of Judgment, and it’s been explained to us in many episodes that we’ve studied before, based on what’s written in the Bible in Hebrews 9:27 “That justice God appointed men to die once, but after this the Day of Judgment.”  Therefore, the dead will be judged at a later appointed time, the Day of Judgment. 

Brother Bob Pellien: Thank you very much, Brother Eric. So then, dear viewers, what different teachings are being given to members of the Catholic Church by their church leadership? And what further does the Catholic Church teach about those loved ones who have passed away that is so very, very different from these truths recorded in the Holy Bible. That’s where we’re going to pick up our discussion when we return. Stay with us right here on the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. We’ll be right back.

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INC International Edition

[17:00] Catholic Teaching on Saints

Brother Bob Pellien: Welcome back to the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. Dear friends, we left off asking our panelists what different teachings are being given to members of the Catholic Church by the church leadership regarding the dead. 

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IS IT RIGHT TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE DEAD?

Brother Bob Pellien: And what’s the difference between what the Catholic Church teaches and what the Bible teaches regarding the dead? And what further does the Catholic Church teach about those loved ones who have passed away that is so very different from these truths recorded in the Holy Bible. And let’s go to you first for that, Brother Eric.

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Brother Eric  Waterman

Quezon City, Philippines

Minister of the Gospel 

Brother Eric Waterman: Brother Bob, there are so many that are very, very different from what’s in the Bible, and a glaring one concerns what they teach about their so-called saints and the prayers that they offer. They’re also concerning those that have died in the past in a book called My Catechism, on Book Two, page 341 this is what they teach their members to believe in.

[My Catechism Book 2, p. 341]

I confess to Almighty God, to blessed Mary, ever Virgin, to Blessed Michael the Archangel, to Blessed John the Baptist, to the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and to all the saints, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore, I beseech blessed Mary, ever virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, Blessed John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and all the saints, to pray to the Lord Our God for me. May the Almighty God have mercy on me, and forgive me my sins, and bring me to everlasting life. Amen. 

Brother Eric Waterman: So here we can see very clearly that indeed the Catholic Church, through its leadership, this cardinal is teaching their members not only to believe in the dead, but also to beseech them and to talk to them, such as Mary, John the Baptist, and others that should mediate on their behalf and serve as a go-between for them and mankind, between God and man, that they teach that they could reach out or that they could help them and result in the forgiveness of their sins.

Brother Mike Guerrero: But Brother Bob, we can’t do that. 

Brother Bob Pellien: Explain further, Brother Mike. Why not? 

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Brother Michael Guerrero

Sacramento, California

Minister of the Gospel

Brother Mike Guerrero: Well, we have already read how the Bible teaches us that the dead are in the grave and do not have any part in anything done under the sun.

[22:00] Jesus Christ Is the Only Mediator

Brother Bob Pellien: Brothers, does that mean, however, that the people should not even ask the so-called Catholic saints and like what you read there, Brother Eric, even the mother Mary, the Mother of Jesus, the Apostles, and also the priests of the Catholic Church. Do you mean to say that we should not ask them to mediate? And no member of the Catholic Church should request them to mediate on their behalf and ask them to request for the forgiveness of their sins. You know, maybe the Catholic priests. Others would say, maybe these priests who are still living can mediate for members of the Catholic Church. Question, Brother Laurence, let’s bring it to you. Is that so?

Brother Laurence Piatti:  Well, that’s also not possible, Brother Bob.

Brother Bob Pellien: Why is that? Why do you say that? 

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Brother  Laurence Piatti

Belfast, Ireland

Minister  of the Gospel

Brother Laurence Piatti: Well, the Bible teaches that there is only one mediator, and who is that one mediator? According to Apostle Paul. Allow us to read here in First Timothy 2:5: 

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. 

[Timothy 2:5 New King James Version]

Brother Laurence Piatti: Dear friends, what the Bible teaches and what the Catholic Church teaches is very different. The Catholic Church teaches that there are many mediators that can help. They teach that the dead can assist the living, but the Bible teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only mediator between man and God, which is the reason why, dear viewers, we invite you to learn more about the Church Of Christ. You will learn as a Bible student the importance of bearing the name of Christ, how to bear the name of Christ, and what that has to do with salvation. You would learn that there are those who bear the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only mediator between God and men, and they are the ones who will go to heaven, and they are the ones who will not be judged. And those people are found in the Lord Jesus Christ, or members of the. Church Of Christ, who will remain until death or until the Day of Judgment. So, dear viewers, the Bible doesn’t teach that there are many mediators, especially so-called saints that are found in the Catholic Church, but only one mediator, who is our Lord Jesus Christ, in whom we can find salvation and eternal life there in heaven.

[25:00] The Biblical Condition of the Dead

Brother Eric Waterman: So, Brother Laurence and dear viewers, the thing that all of us must certainly learn and believe in is concerning what is the teaching concerning the dead in the Bible, and this is what we can read in the book of Psalms, chapter 88 and the verse is 5. This is what the Bible teaches: 

Adrift among the dead, Like the slain who lie in the grave, Whom you remember no more, And who are cut off from Your hand. 

[Psalms 88:5 New King James Version]

Brother Eric Waterman: So the Bible is absolutely clear that the dead are in their grave, waiting for Judgment Day or the Day of Judgment. And the Catholic Church teaches people something very different about a word called purgatory, and we must understand that in order to be saved, we should cast aside any tradition or teaching that leads us away from the teachings of God that are written in the Bible, and follow what is in the truth. So, dear friends, we’re not here to criticize anyone’s traditional belief or what their opinion or ideals are, especially our friends and loved ones that are in the Catholic Church, but when we look at the differences in the various teachings and practices regarding of the dead and what the Bible teaches, which is in fact the basis of our faith inside the Church Of Christ, the truth becomes crystal clear, and the action that we need to take is also crystal and equally clear. 

[27:30] Personal Testimony

Brother Bob Pellien: Thank you for that, Brother Eric. Friends, here’s a video recording of someone who made those comparisons between what he was taught growing up inside the Roman Catholic Church and then what he learned here inside the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the Church Of Christ. And what did he do about it? Let’s take a look. Here’s the Brother who compared what he learned in the Catholic Church to the truths learned here from the Bible inside the Iglesia Ni Cristo. Take a look.

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Peter Kaisara: Mum and Dad said, “Go to church.” If you don’t go to church, you get a smack on your backside. At the time, I thought that the Catholic [church] was the true church. When I started studying the Bible in the Church Of Christ, it really shocked my system. 

My name is Ah-Ka-Peh-Kah. Peter Kaisera, born in the Cook Islands on the island of Rarotonga. We have six in our family, and I’m the last born, and I’m the you could say, the naughty… naughty one. While I was going to school, I was doing, you know, bad things like drinking, smoking, while at school. And pretty much partying and then we go to school while drunk. Eventually, I quit school at a very young age.

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“Forced To Go To Church”

Mum and Dad said, “Go to church.” If you don’t go to church, you get a smack on your backside. So it’s pretty much being forced to go to church, but to me, I had no clue what God is, and pretty much I’m just copying like everybody else. Not to say that I’m a proud Catholic, I couldn’t understand what the Bible was saying. Even though I was reading it. I did feel that something in the Catholic Church wasn’t true. I’m seeing the doctrine of the Catholic church doing the opposite, that made me question my faith in the Catholic Church, and made me want to search more. I posted a post about the Catholic Church and one of my friends in New Zealand commented on that post. So we were debating on that post in terms of the Catholic faith, and one of the Brothers in Perth, Australia, commented on the post and telling us, “Hey guys, you know,” Check this website.” I think, “He thinks that this is the true church” So he put the [incmedia.org] website underneath his comments. So that’s the site I went on and had a look at the website.

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“It Shocked My System”

When I [clicked] on incmedia.org, I started reading all these topic[s]. It was, to be honest, I haven’t, I haven’t read anything like this before. It was…I was at peace reading it. So I replied to this Brother in Perth, his name is Don, and asked him for information on how I could find any, you know, local church in my area. So he came back two days later and provided me with the phone number of one of the ministers in my area. When I started studying the Bible in the Church Of Christ, it really shocked my system, and I said to myself, “I was doing all [of] these things the wrong way, worshiping God, praying to God.” Because in the Bible, the Bible said, “Do not worship idols.” And as you can see in the Catholic Church, they have all these statues scattered in the church. 

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“The Lesson Was Amazing!”

Listening to Brother Glenn, the first lesson he did… it actually [drew] me closer to the lesson. And as we go along to the second, to the third, it’s–my faith grew, and I truly believe that God has shown me the true church. Everything they said to me actually [came] from the Bible and they didn’t, you know, give their own opinion. And the lesson was amazing! Now that I fully understand, I was fired up, I was hungry, I needed more. 

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“I’m On Top Of The World”

If I listen to Jesus Christ, telling us in John 10:9, “If anyone enters by me, he will be saved.” That was the ‘aha’ moment for me. 

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Peter Kaisara was baptized in the Church Of Christ in 2021

I feel that God has answered my prayer. I feel that He directed me to the true Church Of Christ, and I feel that I’m on the top of the world because I know that God can actually hear my prayer. I feel grateful for the love and mercy of our Heavenly Father. 

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[35:30] Panel Reflections

Brother Bob Pellien: Well, Brothers, we can really see how that Brother’s life was changed from being Roman Catholic to the Iglesia Ni Cristo, and he changed because he saw the difference. Brother Eric, what can you say about this story of our Brother there. 

Brother Eric Waterman: It was very heartfelt and touching, and that’s why we invite everyone in these extraordinary times that all the more we all need God. We need the truth, so check out our websites, our program, our worship service, and learn with us what is the truth. 

Brother Bob Pellien: You know, Brother Laurence, there in the Republic of Ireland, I think you’re in Belfast, right? I’m sure there’s a lot of Roman Catholics there. What do you think would be their view of seeing how our Brother’s life was changed for the better when he left Catholicism and joined the Iglesia Ni Cristo?

Brother Laurence Piatti:  I think, Brother Bob, it would be very inspiring for even the Roman Catholic members here to view videos just like this, so that they can be inspired. That’s why it’s important, dear friends and viewers, to check out incmedia.org to find out more about the truth that’s been taught in the Church Of Christ. 

Brother Bob Pellien: And Brother Mike in Sacramento, how were you moved by the story of our Brother when he had such an important transition in his life when he learned the truths in the Holy Scriptures.

Brother Mike Guerrero: Yes, Brother Bob, you know that he mentioned the aha moment, which for a lot of members of the Church Of Christ, when they were still former Catholics, they also had that same experience. They noticed that the teachings that were being taught to them in the Catholic Church were very different from what was taught in the Bible, and that’s why this story is so inspiring, because there are so many members of the Church Of Christ who can relate to our Brother’s story.

[39:00] Invitation

Brother Bob Pellien: Well, dear friends, that does it for us here today at the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. We like to thank our panelists that upheld a very inspiring discussion today, Brother Eric Waterman in Quezon City, Philippines, Brother Mike Guerrero in Sacramento, California, as well as Brother Laurence Piatti there in Belfast, Ireland. Brothers, we thank you. And we thank you for giving to us Bible-based answers, so that as the Apostle Peter says, 

…Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have….”

[I Peter 3:15 New International Version]

Brother Bob Pellien: That’s I Peter 3:15. But before we go, dear friends, we’d like to invite you to join us for a short closing prayer–O merciful Father, dear Lord, we thank you with all our heart, and pray, Lord, may you bless this program, the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition, and especially, Lord, all of our viewers joining us in our broadcast for today. May the understanding of your sacred words reach deep within their heart and inspire them to continue learning with us here inside the true Church Of Christ. Lord Jesus as our only mediator, please bring our pleadings to the Father. Ask Him to bless all of us, the Church Administration, all our guests viewing this program. May we all be brought together in service to you here inside the Church Of Christ. We thank and praise you in the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen.

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INC International Edition