3:54 Is there anything that shows beyond doubt that Catholics are taught by their religious authorities to worship statues or images?
5:55 How do the Catholic priests attempt to make that distinction further?
10:43 What is an act or worship or veneration?
11:25 What else proves that the Catholic Church does indeed teach its members to worship graven images?
14:44 Why are we so sure that what the Catholic Church has been teaching its members to do is incorrect?
15:39 What does the making or when does the making of images of created things become wrong or sinful in the eyes of God?
17:10 How strict is the Lord God when it comes to this prohibition?
18:13 Why is it that God doesn’t permit or doesn’t allow us to even think that He has some kind of image?
19:20 Why are we so sure that the Lord God, the Creator of all things, is indeed displeased with man’s practice of idolatry?
21:33 How do other people worship and serve images? And how does the Bible call those who actually worship images?
29:30 How does the Bible describe further the graven images that people are worshiping?
32:57 What about the veneration or the worship of the ones whom the Catholic Church refers to as saints?
39:30 Let us say that the other people did not fake those occurrences, does that mean that God is the one behind the so-called miracles that have taken place with those images?
41:15 Does the Bible show us how the true God is supposed to be worshiped?
43:25 What should people do then if they’ve been taught to commit idolatry, and worship graven images?
[Show Opens]
Brother Johnny Martin: Hi, I’m Johnny Martin and this is the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. When you hear the word “idol,” what comes to mind? Some, they think of television shows like American Idol, where entertaining singers are being featured. For others, it brings to mind successful athletes, gifted musicians and talented artists, referring to them as their idols.
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Johnny Martin: And for some, they think of people bowing down before various statues or idols, like what can be seen in practicing Buddhists. But did you know that there was a church today that presents itself as being Christian, but actually worships idols or false gods? And what does it mean if you are praying to one of these? That’s what we’re going to be talking about today on the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition.
Brother Johnny Martin: Participating in today’s discussion are Brother Rommel San Pedro in San Francisco, California, Brother Philip Velasquez in London, England, and Brother Glenn David in Sydney, Australia. How are you Brothers?
Brothers: Hello, Brother Johnny.
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, Brothers and dear viewers, the Roman Catholic Church is claimed to be the true Church Of Christ. However, in past episodes of this program, it was proven that the Catholic Church cannot be the true Church Of Christ, because of its various incorrect teachings. Now, today, we’re going to be looking at the Catholic Church’s teaching, and use of graven images or statues. Now, let’s check out this video clip.
[Video starts]
[Source: YouTube ]
Woman: Images of the saints can remind us that we too should strive to live a life of holiness.
We don’t worship these pictures, we have them as reminders, as inspiration on how to lead holy lives. The Catechism teaches us that venerating or rather, honoring an image as a representation of the real thing can be useful in our worship because it gives us a way to focus our attention whether it be on Christ Himself, His Holy Mother, or communion of the saints. Paragraph 2132 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly states that honor pay to sacred images is respectful veneration, not the adoration due to God alone. Just as we record our personal lives through pictures, the Catholic Church has a rich and beautiful photo album of the extended body of Christ of those that have gone on before us. We look to these great men and women of the faith as inspiration and examples on how to live right here on Earth.
[Video ends
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay, brothers, we just took a look at that, what others may call a very weird video. We would like to get your feedback or comments about what we just watched.
Brother Glenn David: First of all, Brother Johnny is that during the time of Christ and the apostles, I don’t think they had any photographers during that time, who took photos or have pictures of accurate images of Christ and the apostle. So no one can truly say today that the images they have now of Christ and the so-called saints serve as inspiration for them to worship because what gives them inspiration are images of perhaps totally different people, basis of, figments of creative imagination. So by saying that, I would think that it serves as a strong inconsistency when they say that they are not serving images when they are blatantly doing so.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Johnny Martin: Now Brothers is something I want to point out here the woman in the video that we watched, makes it appear that Catholics are not worshiping statues or graven images. Based on her statements. It would seem that to say that the members of the Catholic Church are practicing idolatry or the worship of images is simply a baseless accusation. Now Brother Glenn, is there anything that shows beyond doubt that Catholics are taught by their religious authorities to worship statues or images?
Brother Glenn David: Absolutely, Brother Johnny. And first of all, I think it’s very important to open our discussion today by sharing with everyone what is recorded in a book entitled Answers to Your Questions written by a Catholic priest named Richard V. Lawlor.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Glenn David: And this book also has a Nihil Obstat by Matthew Stapleton, who is also a Catholic priest and an imprimatur by Catholic priest as well, who Umberto Madeira’s, which basically means that this is an official Catholic book, upholding official Catholic teachings and the following we could read on pages 126 to 127. It says this:
[Source: Answers to Your Questions, Richard V. Lawlor, Nihil Obstat and an Imprimatur, Pages 126-127]
“The Church, guided always by the Holy Spirit, has told us on more than one occasion that, while God alone is to be worshiped, veneration may be paid to images, not because they have any special worth of their own, but because of the person they represent. We do not give to creatures the worship due to God; that is idolatry. “
Brother Glenn David: So according to this Catholic priest Brother Johnny, the Catholic Church has taught on more than one occasion many occasions in fact that veneration is to be paid to images. And even though he says here, that God alone is the one to be worshiped, the images that they have are to be what they call venerated. And they say further that the veneration they give to the images of their so-called saints, is actually being given to the ones being represented by the images. So in the Catholic Church, Catholic members are being taught to venerate their saints, as well as the images of their so-called saints.
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brother Rommel, based on what we just read here, the Catholic priests are trying to make a distinction between the worship that they give to God and the veneration that they give to Catholic saints and their images. Well, how do the Catholic priests attempt to make that distinction further?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Brother Johnny, if I may, I’d like to read a book entitled The Catholic Catechism, written by a priest named John A. Hardon and this is what he wrote on page four and 42.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
[Source: The Catholic Catechism, John A Hardon, Page 442]
“…the technical name for the worship of God is adoration or latreutic worship (from the ancient Greek word latreia, which meant the service given to the gods). The lesser form of veneration given to the angels and saints that Catholicism recognizes has a theological name of dulia (from the Greek term douleia, which means the respect shown to a master by his servant). The Blessed Virgin is said to be honored with hyperdulia, ie, a higher form of what is essentially the same veneration paid to other creatures among the saints but in essence unlike the adoration given only to God.”
Brother Rommel San Pedro: According to this Catholic authority, the Catholic Church has various theological technical terms for the act of worship they do toward God, to the Virgin Mary, to the saints, and to other images.
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: The term that they do towards our Lord God is called adoration or latreutic worship. What they are doing to the saints, which has veneration, is from the term “dulia”, which is not really what they claim as worship, but a form of respect to those images. And whether rendering to Mary is what is called hyperdulia, which is a higher form of veneration, or what they might call hyper veneration. But what they’re actually doing is hiding what they’re actually doing, which is the act of worship behind these theological or technical terms.
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, Brother Philip, let me ask you this question. You know, some might say, it’s only non-Catholics who insist that the members of the Catholic Church are guilty of worshiping their saints, as well as their images or statues. But Brother Philip, what is the irrefutable proof that the Catholic Church does indeed teach its members to worship Catholic saints and even their images?
Brother Philip Velasquez: Well, Brother Johnny, allow me to read what’s recorded in the Catechism of Christian Doctrine. No. 3, which has a Nihil Obstat by A.G. Casas and an imprimatur by Rufino J. Santos, who is a Catholic priest and this we could read on page 87:
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Philip Velasquez
London, England
Minister of the Gospel
[Catechism of Christian Doctrine, No. 3, Page 87]
“13. Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons? No; it extends also to their relics and images… 15. Ought we to worship holy images? We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also of the Blessed Virgin and the saints, and we should pay due honor and veneration.”
Brother Philip Velasquez: Therefore Catholics actually do worship their saints and their images, and not only have images to remind them of those who lived and served God before they did. And as a Catholic priest put it earlier on. When worship is rendered to creatures, that is idolatry. So Catholics are practicing idolatry, or the worship of false gods.
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay, Brothers, some very interesting points have been made. But of course, there’s not going to be any shortage of Catholics who would deny that they’re practicing image worship or idolatry. You know, they would even flat out refuse to accept that they’re worshiping statues, for example, look at what this young woman says here in this video clip.
[Video starts]
[Source: YouTube]
Woman: Okay, how many times have you heard a Catholic say, “Yes, I worship statues.” I assume you know, maybe none. How many times do we have to say we don’t worship statues? We don’t.
[On screen graphic]
“I’m Catholic, and I worship statues”
…said no one ever” Pt. 1
Come on. Statues don’t have powers. They’re just plaster images. Catholics use statues, paintings and other artistic devices to recall the person being depicted.
[Video ends]
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay, Brothers, we just watched this video clip where this young woman is trying to make the point that members of the Catholic Church are not worshiping graven images. Brothers, what are your comments regarding this?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Brother Johnny, first of all, she said that she’s never heard anyone say that they worship images or statues. I’ve heard many Catholics admit that they worship statues or images, because they don’t understand the technical terms from their catechism. They don’t understand the technical term of veneration. So they say we worship these images, so what? But what they’re actually doing is an act of worship, whether or not they call it worship or veneration, because you could read the following in Psalm 95, verse 6:
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Oh come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
[Psalm 95:6 NKJV]
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Now what the Bible says is that kneeling or bowing down is an act of worship. And that’s what Catholics do in front of these images. They kneel down, they bow before, they pray before these images, even though they say in their mind, it just reminded them of the person that image represents.
Brother Johnny Martin: That’s a very interesting point, Brother Rommel. Now, Brother Glenn, if we can go to you right now, what else proves that the Catholic Church does indeed teach its members to worship graven images? What does a Catholic Church authority acknowledge regarding what Catholics perform to their images or statues?
Brother Glenn David: Well, of course, Brother Johnny, we ourselves won’t answer that, but the Catholic Church themselves or Catholic priest here, in this book, entitled The Faith Of Our Fathers written by James Gibbons, a Catholic priest, on pages 164 to 165 it says:
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
[Source: The Faith Of Our Fathers, James Gibbons, Pages 164 – 165]
“It is in this sense, I take it, that scholastic writers have spoken of the same worship being paid to images of Christ and to Christ our Lord Himself; for the act which is called the worship of an image is really the worship of Christ Himself, through and in the presence of the image and by occasion of it; – The doctrine of the Catholic Church regarding the use of sacred images is clearly and fully expressed by the General Council of Trent in the following words: ‘The images of Christ and of His Virgin Mother, and of other Saints, are to be had and retained, especially in churches; …the honor which is given them is referred to the originals which they represent, so that by the images we kiss, and with before which we uncover our heads or kneel, we adore Christ and venerate His saints, whose likeness they represent’…”
Brother Glenn David: So this Cardinal of the Catholic Church, he admits, he acknowledges that what Catholics do to graven images, is truly an act that is called the worship of an image. So what does the Catholic Church teach Catholics Catholic members to do? Especially when it comes to images of their so-called saints, the Virgin Mary and the Lord Jesus Christ? Well, it is the doctrine of the Catholic Church, as stated here that Catholics have their images placed in church buildings or other in their homes that they give the images honor or worship by kissing them, kneeling before them, and that they honor or worship given to the images refers to the originals that they are being the originals that are being represented by the images. So it is very clear that Catholics are taught to worship their so-called saints and their images. And they are taught to kneel before graven images. They do not just have them to help them bring to memory the lives of their so-called saints. And that is called the worship of an image.
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay, Brothers, very interesting discussion. You know, dear viewers, when we come back from our break, we’re going to be taking a look at what the Bible says on this topic. Is it right for the Catholic Church to teach people to worship Catholic saints and the images of Catholic saints and of others? Well, we’re going to see what the Bible says about this as the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition continues, please stay with us.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
[On-screen logo graphic]
INC International Edition
Brother Johnny Martin: Welcome back, everybody to the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: Today we are taking a close look at the teaching of the Catholic Church, regarding their saints and the images of their saints.
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Johnny Martin: In the Catholic Church, the members are taught to have images of Jesus, the Virgin Mary and of Catholic saints, and to worship them and their images. Catholics are taught to kneel before graven images. But why are we so sure that what the Catholic Church has been teaching its members to do is incorrect? Brother Rommel, if we could begin with you.
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Brother Johnny, instead of going to any opinion about that, let’s turn to what the Bible says in Deuteronomy 4:16:
lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure; the likeness of male or female,
[Deuteronomy 4:16 NKJV]
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Our Lord God does not want people to make any kind of image and the likeness of anything. The Bible mentions the likeness of males or females, if anyone proceeds to do that they’re acting corruptly, or what the Bible says they’re committing a sin.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brother Philip, should this prohibition be taken to mean that it’s wrong to make images or statues of all kinds? You know, some might be thinking about it, what about statues of prominent historical figures in the history of a country or a nation? What does the making or when does the making of images of created things become wrong or sinful in the eyes of God?
Brother Philip Velasquez: Well, to understand this, Brother Johnny, let’s read here in Exodus 20, 3 and 5, the answer is given here from the Holy Scriptures:
You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image– any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, you shall not bow down to them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.
[Exodus 20:3-5 NKJV]
Brother Philip Velasquez: Your question was early on, how about images of prominent people maybe have loved ones, are those prohibited? Well, Brother Johnny, those are not prohibited.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Philip Velasquez
London, England
Minister of the Gospel
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Philip Velasquez: So what kind of images creation of images or having of images is prohibited in the sight of our Almighty God? They are the images that people bow down to, people pray to, people venerate. It is also an act of worship as Brother Rommel mentioned earlier on in the verse that we just read here. So you see, when this commandment is violated, man is committing a sin because the definition of sin– First John 3 and 4 is the breaking of the commandments of our Almighty God.
Brother Johnny Martin: Brother Glenn, you know, some might be wondering how strict is the Lord God when it comes to this prohibition?
Brother Glenn David: Well, God is absolutely strict when it comes to the worship of idols and images. And that we could read here in the book of Acts, chapter 17, and 29. This is what we could read:
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.
[Acts 17:29 NKJV]
Brother Glenn David: So how strict is God when it comes to, to the worship of images? Well, God here through the apostles said, ‘Do not even think that God is like gold, silver or stone shaped by art and man’s devising.’
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Glenn David: So if it is bad to just think that God is like gold, silver, or any other material here on earth, and in heaven, how much more if we actually take a piece of gold, silver shaped or sculpted into an image and bow down and worship before them? All the more that is sinful in the eyes of God?
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brother Rommel, you know, some people might ask, well, how come? Why is it that God doesn’t permit or doesn’t allow us to even think that He has some kind of image?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Brother Johnny, the reason can be found here in John 4:24. This is what our Lord Jesus Christ taught about God:
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.
[John 4:24 NKJV]
Brother Rommel San Pedro: The reason why we should not even think of a Lord God, in terms of an image is because the state of being for Lord God is he’s a spirit.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Rommel San Pedro: So our Lord God doesn’t have any flesh and bones from material form, as we can read in Luke 24: 39, as also taught by our Lord Jesus Christ:
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.
[Luke, 24:39 NKJV]
Brother Rommel San Pedro: So, our Lord God because he’s a spirit. He doesn’t have any flesh and bones from material form, our Lord God is invisible. So no one could possibly make any kind of image to depict accurately what our Lord God is because I’ve got a spirit. He has no material form. That’s why when people bow down before these images, they’re committing an act of idolatry.
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, Brother Philip, why are we so sure that the Lord God, the Creator of all things, is indeed displeased with man’s practice of idolatry? What is in store for those who worship idols or false gods, which is what those who worship images are guilty of doing?
Brother Philip Velasquez: Brother Johnny, the answer is found in the Holy Scriptures in Revelation 21, and 8 of what will become of those who worship graven images. And this will be can read 21 and 8:
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Philip Velasquez
London, England
Minister of the Gospel
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral sorcerers. idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
[Revelation 21:8 NKJV]
Brother Philip Velasquez: So Brother Johnny, the Bible shows us here that those who do the sinful things in the eyes of the Lord, they’re going to have their part in the lake of fire, which is, as the Bible says, the second death. Among the sinful things that were indicated in the verse that we read is idolatry, or the worship of false gods. So those who worship graven images are guilty of worshiping false gods. So we plead to our friends and loved ones inside the Catholic Church, who are dedicating themselves to this practice, the veneration, the worship of their saints, and of their images, they’re doing something that is definitely detrimental to the attainment of their salvation.
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay, Brothers and dear viewers, when we come back from our break, we’re going to be seeing from the Bible, what it says on how other people go about conducting their worship and service of images or false gods. Stay with us as the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition continues.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
[On-screen logo graphic]
INC International Edition
Brother Johnny Martin: Welcome back everyone to the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. We have been discussing today on this episode of the program, the subject of the Catholic Church, and their practice of idolatry or the worship of grieving images.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brother Glenn, if we can begin with you, how do other people worship and serve images? And how does the Bible call those who actually worship images?
Brother Glenn David: The Bible actually gives a very vivid description on how others serve graven images. And we could read that here in Isaiah chapter 46, verse 7, it says:
They lift it to the shoulders and carry it; they put it in place, and there it stands, unable to move from where it is. If any pray to it, it cannot answer, or save them from disaster.
[Isaiah 46:7 TEV]
Brother Glenn David: So this is how others not only others, but millions of people how they blindly follow or serve their graven images. Not only do they bow down or kneel before graven images, but they also lift them up on their shoulders, they carry it around. Earlier on, we mentioned that they even kiss their images. And they also placed them in places where they just stand being unable to move very immobile.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Glenn David: And the images that are being prayed to, they are incapable not only incapable but impossible of giving any answer. Not only that, these images cannot save people from disaster, because they’re just a piece of rock, a piece of wood that cannot hear, and does not have any emotions. There is no way that these images can help or save anyone from all their problems or challenges in life.
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, you know, Brothers and dear viewers, this is a very interesting point in our study. Some might be thinking, well, that kind of idol worship was something that happened, you know, in ancient history, only heathen or pagan people did that back in ancient history. But can we see people doing that today in the 21st century? Well, let’s watch this video clip.
[Video starts]
[Source: YouTube]
Male News Anchor: Millions of Catholic devotees flocked to the Philippine capital of Manila on Thursday for the annual feast to the black Nazarene, a procession carries the image of Jesus which many believe is miraculous from its old home near the city’s National Park to its current home CCTVs Barnaby Lo has the story:
Barnaby Lo: A sea of people as far as the eyes can see. Millions of Catholic devotees surrounded the image of Jesus, the black Nazarene on Thursday, in a procession that stretched six kilometers and lasted almost one full day. They hustled, jostled, and scrambled, all while walking barefoot, each doing what he could amidst the chaos to reach and touch the image, which they believed could work miracles, having survived numerous fires and disasters. Surviving Typhoon Haiyan was nothing short of a miracle for Edwin Arota and his family. He’s come here to offer his gratitude.
Edwin Arota: I thank God that we are alive. I thank God for the people who helped us get through all of the difficulties. I pray that He will also help us get back on our feet.
Barnaby Lo: The Feast of the Black Nazarene is undoubtedly one of the most celebrated religious events in this predominantly Catholic country, and it seems it’s getting bigger and bigger. So much so that local officials now want to promote it as Asia’s Catholic Mecca. The big debate, however, is whether these people’s devotion has turned into what’s essentially idolatry.
But devotees insist they haven’t lost their faith. Boyet Archangel has been a believer for 30 years.
Boyet Archangel: I used to have serious back pains but I believe my devotion to the black Nazarene has helped lessen the pain. I almost suffocated once during the procession, but I survived. So I’ll keep doing this as long as I can.
Barnaby Lo: Perhaps the greatest miracle of all is how millions of Catholics continue to brave the heat and the crowd walking for hours at end and believing it will all be worth the pain and exhaustion at the end of the day. Barnaby Lo, CCTV, Manila.
[Video ends]
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay Brothers after watching that video clip, the one thing that I did notice is how the news reporter mentioned how the debate is the devotion that’s being demonstrated by the people there when it comes to the Black Nazarene. Does this essentially become the practice of idolatry? What about you, brother? Did you happen to notice that or what else did you see in the video clip?
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Philip Velasquez: You know, Brother Johnny, the images in the video that we just saw is reminiscent of something that is very popular here, you know, football culture, especially back in the 70s and 80s, where hooliganism was was very rampant, you know, what a team would lose against a rival and then they would there would be clashes there would be fights. That’s exactly how it looked, the chaos, the mess, the violence that was going on there. And it was very difficult for me to grasp that this is an actual religious ceremony. An event for Catholics where they venerate their saints or in this specific case, the Black Nazarene, that which is very difficult for me to understand.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Philip Velasquez
London, England
Minister of the Gospel
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay, well interesting point. Yes, Brother? Go ahead, Brother Rommel.
Brother Rommel San Pedro: I’m sorry, I know some people are getting injured there. There like, even the people who are taking care of that statue were throwing people off of it into the crowd and people are getting crushed and they’re getting stampeded. And to call it a religious festival, people are getting injured doing this. And you could see that there’s a lot of chaos although they call it devotion, but what I see is fanaticism.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: Now dear viewers, it was pointed out a moment ago that the images cannot save people from disaster. But you know, the images that others serve and worship cannot even save themselves as we can see here in this video clip.
[Video starts]
[Source: YouTube]
[Video ends]
Brother Johnny Martin: Okay Brothers, we just watched a couple of video clips where we can see actual images falling down or collapsing. And of course, for those who are devoted to the veneration of the worship of graven images, well, that’s got to be upsetting for them.
Brother Glenn David: Indeed, it is Brother Johnny. Because not only was that image falling down, very noticeable, but also the reaction of the people around that image, the nuns all those people devoted, they seem shocked. They seemed astonished.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
[On screen graphic]
Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Glenn David: They looked devastated when they shouldn’t be shocked. They shouldn’t be surprised, they shouldn’t be devastated because these images it’s just a piece of material, a piece of rock, a piece of wood. They don’t hear, they don’t see, they don’t have any feelings. So just like what you highlighted earlier, Brother Johnny, if these images cannot save themselves, how much more the people that are devoted to worshiping that image.
Brother Johnny Martin: Very interesting point Brother Glenn. Now, Brother Rommel. How does the Bible describe further the graven images that people are worshiping?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Brother Johnny in Jeremiah 10, 3 to 5 and 8, like to point out that this is our Lord God Almighty speaking in these verses.
The religion of these people is worthless. A tree is cut down in the forest. It is carved by the tools of the woodworker and decorated with silver and gold. It is fastened down with nails to keep it from falling over. Such idols are like scarecrows, and filled with melons. They cannot speak, they have to be carried, because they cannot walk, do not be afraid of them. They can cause you harm and they can do you no good. All of them are stupid and foolish. What can they learn from wooden idols?
[Jeremiah 10:3-5, 8 TEV]
Brother Rommel San Pedro: We just read what the Lord God Almighty said about these idols, you notice that people use tools to carve images made of wood. They are decorated with silver and gold, but what does the Lord God say about these idols?
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
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Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: They can’t walk. They can’t talk. They can’t do any harm, except from the videos you saw earlier. That person in the second video received a concussion. Because the Bible says that they are fashioned with nails, you could see that that’s what they didn’t do to those images. Now, the Bible says God said their God is calling them. We don’t hurt anybody’s feelings that people are doing those things are stupid and foolish. And God himself said their religion, just like the Catholic Church, which does that is worthless. It’s a worthless religion. And that’s what people have to get out of the church, because what they’re doing is worthless in the sight of God.
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, of course, Brothers, we do want to make it very clear that it’s not our intention in our discussion, like today, to hurt anyone’s feelings when we discuss this issue. We have friends and loved ones who are also still members of the Roman Catholic Church, and they are very important and dear to us.
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Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: So it’s not the intention to hurt anybody’s feelings. But all we’re simply doing is pointing people to what the Bible actually says, showing people what the Scriptures say, and that shows us what is acceptable and pleasing before the Lord our God. Now, friends, what about those whom the Catholic Church regards as their saints? We read earlier how the Catholic Church teaches its members to worship their saints, as well as the relics and images of their saints. Does the Bible support this teaching that those whom the Catholic Church regards as their Saint should be noted before and worship? We’re going to talk about that as the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition continues. Please stay with us.
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INC International Edition
Brother Johnny Martin: Welcome back, everyone to the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition, where today we have been investigating the Catholic Church, with particular focus on its teaching and practice of the worship of images, which basically amounts to idolatry. Now, what about the veneration or the worship of the ones whom the Catholic Church refers to as saints? Brother Philip, if we could begin with you should that be done?
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Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Philip Velasquez: Well, Brother Johnny the Catholic Church regards the apostles as being among their saints also, so let’s take a look and see if the apostles would agree to having people venerate or worship them, which is what the Catholic Church teaches their members to do? Well, we can read here in Acts 10:25 to 26:
As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
[Acts 10:25-26 TEV]
Brother Philip Velasquez: In the passage that we read, we find the apostle Peter whom the Catholic Church would refer to as St. Peter, arriving at the place where Cornelius is. As Apostle Peter was coming in Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet, and worshiped him as we read. Cornelius was here bowing down before Apostle Peter.
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Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Philip Velasquez: So let’s consider for a moment what Catholics are taught to do to the images of their saints, like the apostles. They’re taught to have their images and to bow down before them, and then say that that worship is intended for the original. Well, what should we notice? Apostle Peter did not allow Cornelius to do that to him. He lifted up the man and told him to stand up. I myself am a man. The apostle Peter didn’t allow himself to be worshiped or venerated by others. Therefore, what the Catholic Church tells or teaches its members to do is to venerate or worship or bow down before their so-called saints, as well as their images, it goes against what the Bible says. It goes against what the apostles taught. The Bible forbids idolatry.
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, Brothers and dear viewers, what about those who say that their images have exhibited miraculous displays, for example, there are those who would point to the images that have wept or cried that have bled and have moved. Well, let’s check out these video clips first.
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[Source: YouTube]
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15 July, 2012
(The Second Day)
Robert Price:An Arizona woman says she’s feeling a little closer to God as Christmas approaches. Bianca Lopez says she was making breakfast for her family when she spotted this silhouette in one of her pancakes. After taking a closer look, she was certain it was an image of the Virgin Mary. She says for her the Virgin Mary pancake carries a special message.
Bianca Lopez: I think it’s like God’s way of telling us not to forget about him that he’s always there watching over us and taking care of us.
Robert Price:Lopez says she plans to hold on to the heavenly breakfast for as long as she can. Ross Simpson, the Associated Press.
Lupe Rodriguez: I said, Oh my god, I can’t believe it.
Robert Price:It was Thursday nights and Lupe Rodriguez was simply making tacos for her family.
Lupe Rodriguez: That actually came from this bag right here.
Robert Price:A bag of meat cassava flour tortillas.
Lupe Rodriguez: And I was just grabbing one at a time. And then I just picked it up and there I saw her right away, I saw her vision.
Robert Price:Her image right there on the tortilla, Lupe says the Virgin Mary. Lupe Rodriguez: Like something to me got sent to me. She actually wanted me to see her.
Robert Price:Lupe screamed out to her daughter.
Daughter: She’s like, Oh my gosh, look, look, Our Lady of Guadalupe is on our tortilla. And so I looked and I saw her right away.
Lupe Rodriguez: Like her gown. Her robe. And then here’s like her face, and the two eyes and her nose and her little crown.
Robert Price:It’s an image that can already be found throughout Lupe’s house: paintings, statues even on the fridge, but a tortilla?
Lupe Rodriguez: I just kept going on and on and on about it all
night.
Robert Price:Older daughter, Christina was a little more skeptical.
Christina: I still have a hard time seeing the face of it. But I see the outline of it. And I believe my mom and her faith and I see what she sees.
Robert Price:But wait, turns out there’s more.
Lupe Rodriguez: Didn’t pay attention to the back and then it turned it around and I thought, oh my gosh, I see his face also.
Robert Price:The face of Jesus Christ on the other side of the same tortilla.
Lupe Rodriguez: Sounds like double.
Robert Price:Now Lupe is taking the tortilla wherever she goes.
Lupe Rodriguez: We went to visit my son last night and I had her in with me in the van and I showed it to him and he touched it and carried it like a little bit of a miracle for this family. They all say that I’ve been blessed that there’s many more blessings to come. I feel like she’s telling me everything’s gonna be okay in life for you and just let everybody know that I am here.
Robert Price: Lupe even brought the tortilla with her to church Sunday morning and showed it to a priest before Mass. She says he was a little more skeptical about the image. But nevertheless blessed Lupe Andrew tortilla. Reporting from Sutherland Springs, Robert Price, Fox News at 9.
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Brother Johnny Martin: Okay, Brothers, we have a bleeding Virgin Mary statue, pancake Virgin Marys, and tortilla Virgin Marys and Jesus Christ. What do you think about those Brothers?
Brother Philip Velasquez: Well, I mean, it just goes to show that, you know, when someone is convinced about something, we as human beings, we believe what we want to believe we see what we want to see. But then, at the end of the day, if we want to be considered Christians, we have to believe and follow what is written in the Holy Scriptures in order for us not to be led astray?
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Philip Velasquez
London, England
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, you know, there are those who are not ready to accept that these images did or displayed anything miraculous at all, for example, the bleeding image of the Virgin Mary. You know, we live in a day and age where people are able to create or produce all kinds of things that appear on film, just consider the number of science fiction movies out there that depict other worlds aliens and cultures, for example, the Star Wars films. But let’s say that something actually did occur with those images that cannot be explained rationally. And were no manipulation of the images were involved. Brother Glenn, let us say that the other people did not fake those occurrences, does that mean that God is the one behind the so-called miracles that have taken place with those images?
Brother Glenn David: We could read the answer Brother Johnny in Isaiah chapter 42, verse 8, it says,
I am the Lord that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another. Nor My praise to carved images.
[Isaiah 43: 8 NKJV]
Brother Glenn David: So does that mean that God is behind those so-called miracles through those images? The answer is absolutely not. Because God himself made a very specific, very clear when he declared himself I will not give my praise, my glory to another to any kind of images, because that praise and glory, it’s reserved for God Almighty because he is the creator. We should be worshiping the Creator, and not the creation, which are those graven images.
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Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, Brother Rommel, if God is not the one behind the things that have supposedly happened with these images, well then who is? Why have the images being worshiped by Catholics been able to perform signs or do so-called miracles?
Brother Rommel San Pedro: The answer can be found here in Second Thessalonians, two, nine to 10.
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they do not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[II Thessalonians 2:9-10 NKJV]
Brother Rommel San Pedro: According to the Holy Bible, Satan, or the devil, is able to use all kinds of lying wonders, all kinds of science, all kinds of power or false miracles, to deceive people. And that’s what’s going on here. It’s the deception of the devil.
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Rommel San Pedro
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: Now, Brother Philip, Brother Glenn mentioned a moment ago, that the one we really should be worshiping is the true God, the Creator of all things. But does the Bible show us how the true God is supposed to be worshiped?
Brother Philip Velasquez: Oh Brother, we can get the instruction from our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, recorded here in John 4:23.
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and truth: for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
[John 4:23 NKJV]
Brother Philip Velasquez: So your question was, how should we worship our Almighty God? Our Lord Jesus Christ taught the true worshipers to worship God in spirit and in truth.
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Philip Velasquez
London, England
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: Brother Glenn, how is that done? How is the true God being worshiped in spirit and in truth?
Brother Glenn David: Well, we’ll ask the Lord Jesus Christ once again, and he provides the answer in Matthew, chapter 6, 9 to 10:
In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
[Matthew 6:9-10 NKJV]
Brother Glenn David: So how do we worship God in spirit and in truth? Well, first of all, we worship God in spirit, when we praise or worship the name of God, not the image of God. And we worship God in spirit through our hymn singing, through our prayers that we conduct, especially in our worship services here inside the Church Of Christ, or the Iglesia Ni Cristo. Now, when it comes to worshiping God in truth, that is done through the words of God that has been taught to us from the Holy Scriptures, not only do we listen to it, accept it, but we apply and obey those teachings every day of our lives.
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Glenn David
Sydney, Australia
Minister of the Gospel
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Topic: ARE YOU PRAYING TO ANY OF THESE?
Brother Glenn David: So in essence, all these things that are being done worshiping God, in spirit, and in truth can be seen inside the Church Of Christ, especially through our worship services. We sing hymns of praises to God, we pray to God as a congregation, and also by the Minister, the head Deacon, and the words of God, the truth is being taught to us by the ministers of the gospel, that we follow and obey every day of our life, so that we can show to God that we are truly worshiping Him, in spirit and in truth.
Brother Johnny Martin: So dear Brothers and dear friends, you know, this leads us to this question. What should people do then if they’ve been taught to commit idolatry, and worship graven images? Well, let’s read what the Bible says here in Second Corinthians 6:16, to 18:
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God. And they shall be My people.” Therefore, “Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean. And I will receive you. “I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty.
[II Corinthians 6:16-18]
Brother Johnny Martin: According to the verses that we’ve just read, dear friends, those who have gotten used to worshiping idols or false gods should separate themselves from that bad habit.
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Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: What did God say? God said, Come out from among them, and be separate, do not touch what is unclean. So if we would distance ourselves from the worship of images or idols, then God assured us that he would receive us that he would be a Father to us, and that we would be His sons and daughters. So we encourage our viewers to leave behind them already the wrong form of worship, that is being done in other religions, for example, the Catholic Church. Since we have seen that the Catholic Church does practice that sinful act of idolatry. Well, the Catholic Church could not be the true Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not have salvation on Judgment Day. It would be good or advisable for people to leave the Catholic Church and join the true Church Of Christ, where the true God is being worshiped in spirit and truth, which is exactly what the Iglesia Ni Cristo does.
Brother Johnny Martin: We invite everyone to attend the worship services of the Iglesia Ni Cristo and to get more information about this Church, well, like the local congregation nearest you could check out our website, Iglesia Ni Cristo.net.
Brother Johnny Martin: We’d like to thank Brother Philip Velazquez in London, Brother Rommel San Pedro in San Francisco, and Brother Glenn David in Sydney, Australia for giving us a Bible based answer so that, as the Apostle Peter said to the members of the Church, ‘you will be ready to speak up and tell anyone who asks why you’re living the way you are,’ which we can read in First Peter 3:15.
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, that does it for us here on the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. We hope you’ll join us again next time. I’m Johnny Martin, and thank you so much for watching. And as we come to the end of the program, we would like to invite you to join us for a short prayer.
Brother Rommel San Pedro: Most kind and loving father, praises unto Your holy name. Thank you for guiding us with your Holy Spirit has proclaimed your holy gospel. Please bless all of our viewers. Please allow them to feel the power of your Holy Spirit so they would realize that this is Your holy nation, wherein they really should receive their holy baptism to be saved on Judgment Day. Praises unto you Lord Jesus, we worship and love Your holy name. Please allow us to abound in faith, love and hope. And help us to be prepared for the day of your return. Heavenly Father once more, we call upon your Holy Name. Please protect the entirety of the Church Of Christ. Please always continue to bless us, Father so that we’ll be able to bear much fruit for your glory, more so should be saved before the day of judgment comes. We ask all of these things through the Lord and our Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen.
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