3:15 How did our Lord Jesus Christ introduce Himself?
8:04 Is it really true that Jesus just accepted what the Apostle Thomas said?
9:48 The Bible says they were terrified and frightened, and supposed or thought that they had seen a spirit. Now what does it mean that they thought they had seen a spirit?
10:10 Who did the apostles suppose the Lord Jesus Christ was when they saw him?
11:00 Did Jesus allow them to continue thinking that way? Did he say to them, ‘you’re right, I am a spirit. You’re right, I am a God.’ Did he allow them? Or did he correct them?
14:12 What other verses may they use to support their claim that Jesus is both God and man?
16:47 How could the Lord Jesus Christ be God if he became obedient to the point of death?
19:48 What did it mean when it says that in that verse that Jesus is in the form of God?
29:15 Where is Jesus now, when he ascended into heaven, if he did not become God, or return to a position of being God, there in heaven? Who is Jesus in heaven? And where is Jesus in heaven?
31:55 What is the nature or the state of being of the one who is seated at the right hand of God?
33:50 Christ died. Brother Greg, why is that an important point?
37:41 Who then is that only true God, Brother Ruben?
[Show open]
[On-screen logo graphic]
INC International Edition
Brother Bob Pellien: Hello, I’m Bob Pellien. And this is the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. Today’s topic, the Lord Jesus Christ. Is he a man? Or is He God?
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Bob Pellien
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
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TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Bob Pellien: Some of our viewers may even believe that both views are in fact correct that Jesus is God and man. Today we’ll take an in-depth study of people’s views about the Lord Jesus. And is there any biblical evidence that Jesus is both God and man? And if they say that Jesus is God, claiming that what they say is based on biblical passages, how should we understand these verses? All these and more today on the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition.
Brother Bob Pellien: And with me today in this week’s discussion is Brother Johnny Martin in Quezon City, Philippines.
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Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Bob Pellien: Brother Ruben Bustos in Los Angeles, California.
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Ruben Bustos
Los Angeles, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Bob Pellien: As well as Brother Greg Worthen in Miami, Florida. Welcome, Brothers, and thank you for joining our discussion.
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Greg Worthen
Miami, Florida
Minister of the Gospel
Brothers: Thank you, Brother Bob.
Brother Bob Pellien: Dear friends, without a doubt, the Lord Jesus Christ is very important in the lives of so many people all around the world. So, before we begin our study, let’s first take a look at what others may say about the Lord Jesus Christ. And these couple of short video clips. Let’s first take a look:
[Video starts]
[Source: YouTube/CFC India]
Man: When we believe in the humanity of Jesus Christ. It does not mean that we don’t believe in His deity. The truth is always found in two things: it is written, it is also written. And so when we talk about the humanity of Christ, we believe that Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% man.
[Source: YouTube/Mars Hill Church]
Man: What do you think? Is Jesus God or man? Yes, he’s the God-man. That’s how we do it. He’s both God and a man. So he’s the God man. Jesus is one person, two natures fully God, fully man. We believe that. All Christians do. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox Christians all believe that.
[Video ends]
Brother Bob Pellien: Brothers, after taking a look at those couple of clips, those preachers are very common amidst Christianity nowadays their opinion is very common. What do you think?
Brother Greg Worthen: Yes, it’s very common, but it’s not biblical Brother Bob. In fact, we members of the Church Of Christ cannot agree with what was mentioned in the video clips that Christ is both God and man.
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Greg Worthen
Miami, Florida
Minister of the Gospel
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TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Greg Worthen: It’s also not true that all Christians would believe that way. Because we as true Christians do not believe that way, because it’s not founded on the teachings of the Bible, and especially in the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. In fact, if we were to look at how Jesus introduces himself, this is what he says. And we’ll read his testimony here in John 8:40, Christ taught:
But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth…
[John 8:40 ESV]
Brother Greg Worthen: How did our Lord Jesus Christ introduce himself? He introduced himself as a man, and not as a man-God.
Brother Johnny Martin: You know, Brother Greg, dear viewers, who may think that the Iglesia Ni Cristo, Church Of Christ think less of Jesus Christ, because we don’t believe that He is God or a god-man.
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Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: But what we should let them know is that we do have a very high regard for the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, the name Church Of Christ alone should show our viewers that the Lord Jesus is the most important person in our lives as members of this Church. He is our Lord, our Savior, our mediator, and we even worship Him. These, however, do not make the Lord Jesus Christ God, or a god-man.
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now, Brothers, if I might add in that video that we had just seen, there was one of the preachers that was saying that rather he made a statement to the effect that all Christians believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is one person with two natures.
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Ruben Bustos
Los Angeles, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Ruben Bustos: He said that he is fully God and fully man at the same time. Now we have to understand beloved viewers that, that is incorrect if we talk about the Holy Scriptures.
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TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Ruben Bustos: The reason why we say that, that is incorrect, the Bible teaches us or rather, we can read in the Bible I should say that there was no true follower of our Lord Jesus Christ, that rightfully thought that our Lord Jesus Christ was God or a god-man. The truth of the matter is we live with friends, there is even an instance that our Lord Jesus Christ, corrected someone who had that wrong impression or wrong, wrong belief, I should say that our Lord Jesus Christ is God.
Brother Bob Pellien: Oh, wait, Brother Ruben, you know that instance that I think you’re speaking about is, that’s a very popular mindset, their way of thinking with so many others in this world who believe that Jesus is in fact, God.
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Bob Pellien
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Bob Pellien: They may even use that particular instance you’re referring to, to try and prove that Jesus is God or a god man. Can you give us a little more insight on that particular instance you’re referring to, Brother Ruben?
Brother Ruben Bustos: Well, Brother Bob, what I was referring to is what we could read here in the book of John chapter 20, verses 28 through 29. This is what we could read:
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
[John 20:28-29 NKJV]
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now, dear friends, Brother Bob would say, after reading this verse, that Apostle Thomas called our Lord Jesus Christ here, as God, because they said that he mentioned My Lord and my God.
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TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Ruben Bustos: Because of this, they assume that one of the apostles or one of the true followers of our Lord Jesus Christ testified, gave concrete proof that our Lord Jesus Christ is God. Secondly, our friends would assume that, since this was given by none other than Apostle Thomas, well, that has to be correct. And our Lord Jesus Christ, they say, did not correct the Apostle Thomas, with regards to his statement.
Brother Greg Worthen: But I think Brother Ruben, if someone wants to base their faith on this statement made by Apostle Thomas, they’re going to be making a very serious mistake, because what we have to understand was what was in the mind of Apostle Thomas, prior to making that statement. And I think to understand that we need to go just a couple of verses above those verses you read earlier, 28 and 29. We’re gonna go to verse 25, to understand the mindset at that time of Apostle Thomas, when he made that statement, and this is what is recorded here, John, also, this time in 20, and verse 25:
The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
[John 20:25 NKJV]
Brother Greg Worthen: What was the mindset of Apostle Thomas, before giving that statement? He was in a condition of unbelief or disbelief. So again, if we are going to base our faith on that statement given by Apostle Thomas, we’re going to be making a serious mistake.
Brother Bob Pellien: You know, the points that you’re both making here, Brothers are very important and interesting points, and we no doubt would receive the question of others, which would be well, is it really true though? Is it really true that Jesus just accepted what the Apostle Thomas said? That has to be the next question, because there are other people who say that he didn’t correct him. He just accepted it. But is it really true, Brother Johnny?
Brother Johnny Martin: You know, Brother Bob, that’s a very interesting question. And dear viewers we can learn more about the reaction of the Lord Jesus to Apostle Thomas, by reading more about this instance, when he revealed himself to the apostles.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: Now let’s read that same instance, from the perspective of another writer of one of the Gospels of the Lord Jesus Christ, this time reading Luke 24:33, 36, and 37:
So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together,
Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
[Luke 24:33, 36, and 37 NKJV]
Brother Johnny Martin: Dear viewers, we just read the same instance of the event, when Apostle Thomas was surprised or frightened when he saw the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we know this is that same instance because the Bible said, they returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven. Now when the Bible mentions the eleven, it is referring to the apostles. Judas, of course, was no longer an apostle, so they were no longer known as the twelve.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Johnny Martin: What is important to note though, is Apostle Thomas was there when the Lord revealed himself to the apostles. Now, did you notice the reaction? The Bible says they were terrified and frightened, and supposed or thought that they had seen a spirit. Now what does it mean that they thought they had seen a spirit? John 4: 24. This is what the Lord Jesus Christ says here:
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
[John 4:24 NKJV]
Brother Johnny Martin: So who did the apostles suppose the Lord Jesus Christ was when they saw him? They thought he was a spirit or they thought the Lord Jesus Christ was God. Now in this scenario, when Thomas was frightened, his verbal reaction was “My Lord and my God!”
Brother Bob Pellien: Well, Brothers, Brother Johnny, specifically, that’s an important recount of the same instance. But we have to address the question that when the Lord Jesus knew that reaction of his disciples that were there the apostles, which included Thomas, then they thought that they were seeing a spirit, they thought they were seeing God. The question that still remains, however, is, did Jesus allow them to continue thinking that way? Did he say to them, ‘you’re right, I am a spirit. You’re right, I am a God.’ Did he allow them? Or did he correct them? That remains the question.
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Bob Pellien
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Ruben Bustos: Oh, Brother Bob, our Lord Jesus Christ did correct, Apostle Thomas, and all of those others who were present during that time. The truth is, we could read that here in the book of Luke chapter 24, verses 38 through 39, just the continuation of what Brother Johnny read earlier:
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Ruben Bustos
Los Angeles, California
Minister of the Gospel
And he said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
[Luke 24:38-39 NKJV]
Brother Ruben Bustos: Our Lord Jesus Christ did not allow the apostles to think that he was God or a spirit.
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TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Ruben Bustos: In fact, our Lord Jesus Christ specified to them his difference with the true God. Our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned in the verses that we read, ‘for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.’ That’s why beloved friends, who would you believe? Who would you base your faith regarding the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ on? For example, would you base it on apostle Thomas’s statement and let’s remember, beloved friends, that or rather than Apostle Thomas were in a state of disbelief, or would we base it on our Lord Jesus Christ, who mentioned in verses of the Holy Scriptures, he declared that he himself is a man who is telling the truth?
Brother Bob Pellien: So clearly Brothers, then by what you have read, He did correct them. He made sure they did not maintain that errant way of thinking that He was God or a God-man. And I’m sure our friends viewing this program will never disagree with any statement that our Lord Jesus Christ has made. He made it, he made it very clear how He would, how He would and should be recognized, and that is, as a man.
Brother Bob Pellien: So dear friends, when we come back, we will continue to study about our Lord Jesus Christ, posing questions such as, why do some insist that Jesus is a god-man? What other biblical claims may others have, which they use to, to allegedly prove, in fact, their claim that He is both God and man? All these when we return.
[On-screen logo graphic]
INC International Edition
Brother Bob Pellien: Welcome back, everyone to the Iglesia Ni Cristo International Edition. For those of you who may be just joining us, we’ve been examining some of the arguments of those claiming that the Lord Jesus Christ is a God-man, holding that kind of a dual nature. The belief, in fact, is to see that he is fully God, and also fully man. Well, these allegations are claimed by those who say they have biblical proof of it. But what other verses may they use to support their claim that Jesus is both God and man? Is there any other basis for their claim that they try to use Brother Greg?
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Bob Pellien
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
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TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Greg Worthen: Well, Brother Bob, and to our dear viewers, of course, the belief that Jesus is fully God and fully man would mean that this would go hand in hand with the idea that God changed himself to become a man.
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Greg Worthen
Miami, Florida
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Greg Worthen: And so that according to this belief, that Jesus would be able to change himself into man, and that he would be both God and man. And to support this particular frame of mind or this particular belief. They also cite from the Bible. I like to read what they would cite in regard to this as recorded in Philippians 2:6 to 8, this is written:
who, being in the form of God? did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
[Philippians 2:6-8 NKJV]
Brother Greg Worthen: Of course, after reading this particular verse, the conclusion of some of our friends is that Jesus was in the literal sense, or literally in the form of God being equal with him, and then became a man to die for our sins. Now, if we’re going to take that particular stand, there’s going to be a lot of inconsistencies with regard to the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. For example, how could Jesus be in the form of God, when based on Deuteronomy 4:15, God has no form? Or how can we accept the belief that Jesus is equal with God, when Christ himself clearly taught in John 14:28, in the Amplified Version that ‘the Father is greater and mightier than I am?’
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Greg Worthen: And of course, God Himself decreed, as written in Isaiah 45:6 and 9: “To whom will you like in me, I am God, and there is none like me.” And perhaps the biggest question that arises would be this, how could the Lord Jesus Christ be God if he became obedient to the point of death? Now that would mean that Jesus, who was God in their eyes, is following someone greater and mightier than Him. And that would be a contradiction, because the true God is supreme. He is Almighty and of course, let’s not forget that the death of our Lord Jesus Christ is clear cut proof, that he could not be the true God, since the true God is immortal, as recorded in First Timothy 1:17.
Brother Johnny Martin: You know, Brothers, something I would like to clarify here at this part of our study, for the sake of our viewers, when it comes to the Bible verses that we are taking a look at in our discussion today.
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Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: Of course, we accept what is recorded in the Bible, we accept the Word of God recorded in Holy Scripture, but we’re not accepting is the wrong or faulty interpretation that others are giving to these verses or passages of the Holy Scripture, which are being cited by others, to try to prove the belief that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. For example, right here, in Philippians 2:6 things we want to point out there is nothing there in the passage that says, the Lord Jesus Christ is the true God. That does not exist that cannot be found. There in the verse itself. It is only the conclusion of others, that this passage is teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. Now, another thing is the conclusion that God became a human being, came down to earth, in the form or in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ. Well, that does not get any support from the teaching of the Holy Scripture. And we’re sure of this because we can read what it says here in Hosea, chapter 11, verse 9, where God said:
I will not execute the fierceness of My anger: I will not again destroy Ephraim. For I am God, and not man, The Holy One in your midst; And I will not come with terror.
[Hosea 11:9 NKJV]
Brother Johnny Martin: The one speaking in the passage is the Almighty God Himself. Now what did the Almighty God say right here? Very clearly. He said, Dear friends, “I am God, and not man.” Now, it’s important to note here, that God did not say I am fully God, and at the same time, I am fully man, he didn’t say that. We need to accept what God said right here. And he said, “I am God, not man.”
Brother Bob Pellien: So Brothers, it’s really it’s really crystal clear from the verses that you are reading that, well, we just cannot accept the teaching that Jesus is both God, or a god-man, God or a god, man, based on what was what we’ve been studying here, the verses that you have all been reading.
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TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Bob Pellien: However, what about that Philippians 2:6, Brothers? If the Bible did not mean, in fact, then that Jesus is in the literal sense in the form of God. Well, what did it mean when it says that in that verse that Jesus is in the form of God? If it’s not in a literal sense, or if you say that God has no form and all that well, well and good. What then was Apostle Paul saying?
Brother Ruben Bustos: Well, Brother Bob, in mentioning that our Lord Jesus Christ was in the form of God. The equivalent is that our Lord Jesus Christ is in the image of Our Lord God.
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Ruben Bustos
Los Angeles, California
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now others testify this. For example, in a book entitled Christology In The Making: An Inquiry Into The Origins Of The Doctrine Of The Incarnation, written by James Dunn, we could read the following:
[In The Making: An Inquiry Into The Origins Of The Doctrine Of The Incarnation, by James Dunn]
…it has long been recognized that morphe (form) and eikon (image) are near synonyms and that in Hebrew thought the visible ‘form of God’ is his glory.
Brother Ruben Bustos: Yes, in the image of Our Lord God, but not literal image in that sense, because we have to remember what is recorded in Luke chapter 24, verse 39, in the book of John chapter 4, verse 24, are in our Lord Jesus Christ had mentioned that God is a spirit, he has no flesh and bones, while our Lord Jesus Christ had flesh and bones. In fact, if we read also from the Bible in Ephesians, chapter 4, verse 24, this is what we could read:
And put on the new nature (the regenerate self) created in God’s image, (Godlike) in true righteousness and holiness.
[Ephesians 4:24 AMP]
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now, we have to understand here, beloved friends, that no one was able to become equal with our Lord God, in that godly standard. Now, what else is it that the Bible teaches? In Romans chapter 3, verse 23. It mentions this beloved friends:
Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.
[Romans 3:23 AMPC]
Brother Ruben Bustos: We should notice, beloved friends, only our Lord Jesus Christ has been able to reach that or become equal with God’s image. Which is why in Philippians, chapter 2 verse 6, it says that our Lord Jesus Christ was in God’s image, but did not consider it robbery, to be equal with our Lord God.
Brother Bob Pellien: But Brothers, what about the other part of what Apostle Paul wrote there when he made mention that he was in the appearance as a man? What did he mean by that?
Brother Greg Worthen: Well, Brother Bob, the passage states that he appeared as a man. This is not because he isn’t a man or is inhuman. In fact, Apostle Paul also thought that Jesus was truly human. This is what he said here in First Timothy 2:5:
There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only one who can bring us to God. Jesus was truly human, and he gave himself to rescue all of us.
[I Timothy 2:5 CEV]
Brother Greg Worthen: So the Bible tells us that Jesus was truly human, not a god or a god-man.
Brother Johnny Martin: So like John 20:28, Philippians 2:6 can never be used or accepted, as a basis to show that Jesus is God or a god-man.
Brother Bob Pellien: Thank you very much for that Brothers. Dear friends, when we come back, we will study one more verse that well, some are also using and believing that it means or teaches that Jesus is God, or a god-man. Please stay with us.
[On-screen logo graphic]
INC International Edition
Brother Bob Pellien: Welcome back, everyone. Today, we’ve been discussing what others have to say about the Lord Jesus Christ. And well, we’ve been studying the holy scriptures to determine if in fact, their arguments are true, or valid. Their argument is Christ, really a god-man, as many are claiming. And before we begin with our discussion, or further our discussion, let’s take a look at yet another video clip. Let’s watch.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Bob Pellien
San Francisco, California
Minister of the Gospel
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
[Video starts]
[Source: YouTube/CFC India]
Man: And in this book, right at the beginning, in the first chapter, you find the deity of Christ emphasized so clearly. So that when he goes on to speak about the humanity of Christ, you don’t get the wrong impression that he doesn’t believe in His deity. And there is hardly a verse in the New Testament which speaks about the deity as clearly as this. Listen to this. It’s one of the clearest verses of the deity of Christ ‘the father tells the son in verse 8, your throne, oh, God, is forever and ever.’ How does the father call the son? ‘Oh, God.’ Amazing. There is no clearer verse about the deity of Christ than that. And it’s in the book of Hebrews that speaks about his humanity.
[Video ends]
Brother Bob Pellien: Brothers, he cites Hebrews 1:8. What’s your reaction to what the gentleman just said? According to him, there’s no better proof about the deity of Christ or that Jesus is God. Supposedly there’s no other verse in the New Testament that speaks of Christ being God as clearly as that verse, Hebrews 1:8?
Brother Ruben Bustos: Brother Bob, we need to read Hebrews chapter 1, verse 8, because he was mentioning in his, in his preaching, that it was clear, it was clear proof there, that our Lord Jesus Christ is God. So this is what we could read in Hebrews chapter 1, verse 8.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Ruben Bustos
Los Angeles, California
Minister of the Gospel
But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
[Hebrews 1:8 NKJV]
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now after reading this biblical passage, our friends may make the assumption that when God was talking to the son, or our Lord Jesus Christ, He called the son or our Lord Jesus Christ, as God. But this, however, is not the case. The reason why we say this is because if we continue reading all the way or rather to the next verse, verse 9, it mentions this:
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
[Hebrews 1:9 NKJV]
Brother Ruben Bustos: Now, here in verse 9, it mentions that the son or our Lord Jesus Christ, has a recognized God. Now, if the son has a recognized God, and the God, whom the son recognizes as his God, also, it would seem that there are two gods which we know contradicts the teachings of the Holy Scriptures.
Brother Greg Worthen: And in addition to that, as well as the fact that in verse 8, God the father is calling the Son God, then God is talking to God, making also two gods.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Greg Worthen
Miami, Florida
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: And you know, Brothers, the first thing that I’d like to point out here is when that gentleman mentioned, ‘ the father is calling the Son as God.’ Well, that’s his view, or that’s his interpretation of the verse.
[On-Screen Text Graphics]
Johnny Martin
Quezon City, Philippines
Minister of the Gospel
Brother Johnny Martin: You know, the father is not actually calling the Son as God. In fact, I’d like to read some other versions of Hebrews 1:8 to help our viewers understand this. First, I’d like to read Hebrews 1:8 from the James Moffat translation of the Bible. And this is stated here:
“he says of the Son, ‘God is thy throne forever and ever, thy royal scepter is the scepter of equity.”
[Hebrews 1:9 Moffatt]
Brother Johnny Martin: What do we notice here? It says in the James Moffat, translation, he says, of the son, ‘God is thy throne,’ but also in another translation in the Smith Goodspeed translation of the Bible. Again, Hebrews 1:8, this is stated:
“But of the Son he says, ‘God is your throne forever and ever! And a righteous scepter is the scepter of his kingdom.”
[Hebrews 1:8 Goodspeed]
Brother Johnny Martin: Again, what do we notice it says, of the son, he says, ‘God is your throne, forever and ever.’ And then finally, here, in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, Hebrews 1:8, this is stated:
“But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your throne forever and ever, and/ the/ scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.”
[Hebrews 1:8 NWT]
Brother Johnny Martin: Again, dear friends, what can we notice here in Hebrews one eight in these different versions or translations of the Bible? It shows us that the Father is not actually calling the Son as God but rather, God is the throne of the Son or the Lord Jesus Christ.
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TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Bob Pellien: So clearly, then Brothers. Hebrews 1:8 is not teaching that Christ is in fact, God, but it’s clearly teaching the fact that he is very different from God. But you know, Brothers, Brother Ruben, then where is Jesus now, when he ascended into heaven, if he did not become God, or return to a position of being God, there in heaven, who is Jesus in heaven? And where is Jesus in heaven?
Brother Ruben Bustos: Well, Brother Bob, we could read the answer here in the book of First Peter chapter 3, verses 21 through 22. This is what it is stated in those verses:
There was also an antitype which now saves us–baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven, and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
[I Peter 3: 21-22 NKJV]
Brother Ruben Bustos: Hence it is very clear from these verses, beloved friends, that not only has our Lord Jesus Christ gone into heaven, our Lord Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God in heaven. The Bible also mentions that all angels and authorities and powers have been made subject to our Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Brother Greg Worthen: Actually, Brother Ruben, that point that Apostle Peter mentioned about our Lord Jesus Christ was reiterated by the apostle Paul, as we can read it here in Colossians 3:1 this is what Apostle Paul taught:
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
[Colossians 3:1 NKJV]
Brother Greg Worthen: So very clear from the writings of the apostles, that if Christ, or that our Lord Jesus Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. If Christ is God, or God-man right now that he’s at the right hand of God, then there would be God sitting beside God. And that, of course, makes two gods which are not biblical. Or in this case, for example, if they believe that God is a triune, God, then how about the God-man sitting beside God? Is he also a Triune God, which would even counter that particular belief. So we can see that all of these conclusions are contradictory to the teachings and writings as recorded in The Holy Scripture. That’s why we cannot accept those conclusions.
Brother Johnny Martin: And you know, dear viewers, having looked at those two passages of the Bible where we can see our Lord Jesus Christ is already in heaven. Our Lord Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God in heaven. Well, the Bible also tells us what his nature is. And what is the nature or the state of being of the one who is seated at the right hand of God? Well, let’s read what it says here in Psalm 80:17:
Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, Upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself.
[Psalm 80:17 NKJV]
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, the Bible shows us right here in the verse that we have read, that the one seated at the right hand of God is a man. Now our Lord Jesus Christ is that one seated at the right hand of God in heaven. So, the true nature of the Lord Jesus Christ, even right now, while He is in heaven is He is a man or a human being, Jesus did not become the true God, when He ascended into heaven, He is not God and man. The Bible shows us Jesus Christ in heaven right now seated at the right hand of God in heaven. He is a man or a human being.
Brother Ruben Bustos: Beloved Brothers and beloved friends, in fact, on the Day of Judgment, when our Lord Jesus Christ returns, he will not return as a god, but rather he will return as man as what we could read here in the book of Acts, chapter 17, verse 31:
because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
[Acts 17: 31 NKJV]
Brother Ruben Bustos: Hence, it is quite clear, beloved friends, that on the Day of Judgment, or when our Lord Jesus Christ comes again, our Lord God will judge the world, by the man, not the God-man whom he has ordained, with which our father raised from the dead.
Brother Ruben Bustos: We know that that man whom God raised from the dead, is none other than our Lord Jesus Christ.
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TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Bob Pellien: And you know, Brother Ruben, that’s an important point that sometimes people forget. Christ died. Brother Greg, why is that an important point?
Brother Greg Worthen: Because, the death of our Lord Jesus Christ, what outrightly proves that he could not be the true God, because of this characteristic of the true God, which we can read here in First Timothy 1:17. This is recorded:
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
[I Timothy 1:17 NKJV]
Brother Greg Worthen: So the quality of the true God is that He is immortal. By definition, one who is immortal, cannot die. Since Christ died, it is clear-cut proof that he could not be the true God, since He would not only die but was also raised from the dead.
Brother Bob Pellien: By God.
Brother Ruben Bustos: That’s why our Lord Jesus Christ, Brother Greg is not God. According to Hebrews chapter 1, verse 8, he is now at the right hand of the throne of God. This is what we could read here in the book of Hebrews chapter 12, verse 2:
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
[Hebrews 12:2 NKJV]
Brother Johnny Martin: You know, Brothers, that part of the verse that you just read, Brother Ruben where it says, ‘has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.’ Well, even though Jesus Christ, our Lord, sits at the right hand of the throne of God, it does not mean that Jesus Christ is the true God. It does not mean that Jesus Christ is even co-equal with God or with the Father. And why are we sure of this? Well, we can read this here in First Corinthians 15:27 and 28, where the apostle says the following, I read:
For the scripture says, “God put all things under his feet.” It is clear, of course, that the words “all things” do not include God himself, who puts all things under Christ. But when all things have been placed under Christ’s rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.
[I Corinthians 15:27 and 28 GNT]
Brother Johnny Martin: You know, right here, dear viewers, in the verses that we have read what’s very obvious? There is a clear difference or distinction between the Lord Jesus Christ, and the only true God. What is the clear distinction here? Well, mention was made of one who put all things under the Lord Jesus Christ, and there is one who had all things put under him.
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TODAY’S TOPIC: Jesus: God-Man?
Brother Johnny Martin: Well, who is the one who put all things under the Lord Jesus Christ? Well, that would be the father or that would be God. Well, who is that one under whom God put all things that would be the son, or the Lord Jesus Christ. Now that’s one thing. God put all things under Christ, showing that God is different from Christ. Now, the other thing, sit in the verse, ‘Then the Son himself, will place himself under God.’ The Son placing himself under God, again, clearly showing that the son is not God, that the sun is not co equal with God. Clearly God and the Lord Jesus Christ, are different. Therefore Jesus Christ is not, cannot be the true God.
Brother Bob Pellien: And probably then Brothers, one of the most important questions, if not the most important to, to wrap up our discussion for today. Well, who then is that only true God, Brother Ruben?
Brother Ruben Bustos: Well, Brother Bob, if we read the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ in John chapter 17, verses 1 and 3, our Lord Jesus Christ clearly introduces who the true God is:
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
[John 17: 1 and 3 NKJV]
Brother Ruben Bustos: Our Lord Jesus Christ clearly introduces that the Father in heaven, is the only true God. Now how important it is to recognize and accept that the Father in heaven is the only true God? Well, our Lord Jesus Christ made it very clear that what hangs in the balance is none other than eternal life, or the salvation of one’s soul. That’s why beloved viewers, this is our intention that should be led to salvation. But one of the first steps in attaining salvation is the proper recognition of who the true God is. And that is none other than the Father in heaven.
Brother Bob Pellien: Brothers, thank you very much for joining us in this discussion. We’d like to thank you, and thank all our viewers for joining in the discussion and sending questions regarding these topics for the Bible always has their answers. And thank you for using the Holy Scriptures Brothers. Brother Johnny Martin in Quezon City, Philippines, Brother Ruben Bustos Los Angeles, California, and Brother Greg Worthen in Miami, Florida. Thank you for using the scriptures and providing us Bible-based answers to these important questions concerning the true God.
Brother Bob Pellien: Well, dear friends, as Apostle Peter said to the members of the Church, so that you will be ready to speak up and tell anyone who asks why you are living the way you are, First Peter 3:15. Thank you for joining us in our program for today. Please stay with us and join us for a short prayer
Brother Greg Worthen: Our kind and loving Father in heaven. We are so thankful that we have been able to study your laws and commandments to give us clarity and understanding as to who you are, Dear Father. And this relevance and importance to our salvation at the second advent of your only begotten Son. We continue to pray for all of those who take the time necessary to view this program and the many programs of the Church Of Christ in the hope that such kind of knowledge would be implanted into our hearts and our minds. That we would fully comprehend and understand your divine teachings, that when we adhere and follow them, Dear God, it may be truly beneficial to us because such teachings will not only lead and guide us properly through this life, but prepare us to follow your divine will and become members of the only true Church Of Christ. And continue to obey your laws until the day you send your only begotten Son. May you bless each and every one of us. May you continue to help us to follow and learn more of your divine will, so that we may put all of this into practice, Father, and be united in our worship and praise of your most holy name. We thank you for hearing our prayers. We return all glory and honor to you through the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen.
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